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Post by beccabear67 on Nov 12, 2019 13:29:05 GMT -5
I've bought pdf downloads. I much prefer the old fashioned hard copy of something, but then I'm just old. There is an extreme position I didn't even suspect until recently with people railing against buying second-hand things as depriving creators of a new sale. As usual I'm somewhere in the middle, a bit of this and a bit of that, a few treats from the free well as it were also... I trade 'needle-drops' of obscure LP records with various fellow music freaks... but I also spend a little more than a should often on mags and CDs and books. Absolutism is for some perfect creature I've never known in real life. Bob Dobbs instructs us to give some slack, but too much slack is as bad or worse than no slack at all.
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Post by badwolf on Nov 12, 2019 15:27:13 GMT -5
Used book stores are a grey area I guess. Dan Simmons infamously said that he hates them. But if not for those, where would all those books go that people don't want any more? In the trash? That's not acceptable to me.
And how far do you take it? No secondhand anything, because the manufacturers need to get paid?
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Nov 12, 2019 15:36:46 GMT -5
Used book stores are a grey area I guess. Dan Simmons infamously said that he hates them. But if not for those, where would all those books go that people don't want any more? In the trash? That's not acceptable to me. And how far do you take it? No secondhand anything, because the manufacturers need to get paid? If Dan Simmons doesn’t like something it’s prima facie evidence of that being a good thing.
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Post by rberman on Nov 12, 2019 15:50:20 GMT -5
Used book and used music stores are a perfectly legitimate part of the consumer economy. Sellers have no moral right to prevent resale.
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Post by impulse on Nov 12, 2019 17:09:38 GMT -5
Used book and used music stores are a perfectly legitimate part of the consumer economy. Sellers have no moral right to prevent resale. Darn right they are. The notion every person needs to buy a new copy of everything from the manufacturer every time is very anti-consumer. The first sale doctrine basically defends a person's right to resell their own copy of a copyrighted work they purchased. This issue annoys me when rights holders try to treat an item as both a physical copy and a license. "Oh you can't copy your own copy because it's just a license, not a physical thing. Oh, you broke your physical thing? Now you have to buy a new one." I know I'm grossly oversimplifying, but that argument gets on my nerves.
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Post by badwolf on Nov 12, 2019 18:22:39 GMT -5
Used book stores are a grey area I guess. Dan Simmons infamously said that he hates them. But if not for those, where would all those books go that people don't want any more? In the trash? That's not acceptable to me. And how far do you take it? No secondhand anything, because the manufacturers need to get paid? If Dan Simmons doesn’t like something it’s prima facie evidence of that being a good thing. I usually like his writing but I don't know anything about him personally (other than that).
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2019 18:39:15 GMT -5
Used book and used music stores are a perfectly legitimate part of the consumer economy. Sellers have no moral right to prevent resale. Absolutely! If I see some Essential Marvel volumes in a second-hand bookstore, well a) someone bought them legitimately at one point, and b) I'm paying the wages of those store employees. Same if I sell a car. If you sell a car you've driven for many years, should the buyer pay money to the Ford Motor Company? Didn't Garth Brooks once rally against used-CD stores?
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 9,614
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Post by Confessor on Nov 12, 2019 21:35:30 GMT -5
Used book and used music stores are a perfectly legitimate part of the consumer economy. Sellers have no moral right to prevent resale. Damn right. If I've bought a book or CD or DVD and I want to give that to a charity shop or re-sell it myself on eBay after I'm done with it, I'm well within my legal rights to do so. Supporting creators by buying new product is very important, but so is recycling via re-selling...especially in today's evironmentally concious world. There's also the collectability aspect to consider when it comes to buying used books, comics, or LPs. I mean, I recently picked up issue #3 of Marvel's Nick Fury, Agent of S.H.E.I.L.D. and, although it was more expensive than a reprint or even a TPB full of Nick Fury stories, owning a late '60s "original" issue has a historical component to it that is important -- or at least desirable -- to me. Likewise, I could buy a brand new 180g pressing of The Rolling Stones Beggar's Banquet LP, but I'd much rather have the original 1968 pressing of the album that I picked up a few months ago, even though it cost me twice as much as a modern re-pressing. On a somewhat related note, I'm a vegetarian and therefore I never buy any new leather goods like belts, shoes, jackets etc, because I would be supporting an industry that perpetuates the killing of animals. As I see it, it would be no different to me buying meat from a butcher's shop or a supermarket. So, if I want some Doctor Martins, or a pair of cool suede desert boots, or a leather jacket, I have to find it in a secondhand shop or locate it on eBay. I know that this isn't wholly relevant to our discussion, but I think my point is that the existance of the re-sale market is a good thing in that it allows me to purchase items I wouldn't buy new for moral reasons.
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Post by Duragizer on Nov 12, 2019 21:55:51 GMT -5
One response I do hear is, "I can't afford it." Well, currently, I can't afford a Porsche, but I am not going to steal one. "Extremists in this debate love to say 'You wouldn’t go into Barnes & Noble and take a book off of the shelf without paying; why should it be any different with online music?' The difference is, of course, that when you take a book from Barnes & Noble, it has one less book to sell. By contrast, when you take an MP3 from a computer network, there is not one less CD that can be sold. The physics of piracy of the intangible are different from the physics of piracy of the tangible." ― Lawrence Lessig As an anarcho-communist, that prospect doesn't exactly pain me. Capitalism needs to be dismantled, the less violently the better. I can't think of a better non-violent means of destroying the corporations than starving them to extinction. And therein lies the rub. Piracy poisons the bourgeoisie, but it also poisons the petite bourgeoisie and proletariat. I don't want to hurt people who're just trying to make a living.
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Post by impulse on Nov 13, 2019 9:33:18 GMT -5
One response I do hear is, "I can't afford it." Well, currently, I can't afford a Porsche, but I am not going to steal one. At the risk of veering too far off topic, and mods feel free to slap me or move this if needed: You wouldn't steal one, but would you buy a reverse-engineered knockoff sold for 1/10th the price? If you had a 3D printer that was theoretically big enough to print a Porsche, would you print your own for just cost of materials if it was functionally identical? I'm not saying I would, but it makes for an interesting thought exercise IMO. To play devil's advocate, my cinema attendance has drastically declined because the experience has become abysmal more often than not while the home viewing experience gets better and better. I cannot remember the last time I saw a movie where there wasn't at least one person, and usually many people, talking during the movie, whipping out their phone, texting, whispering, even chatting conversationally. The prices keep going up, so I'm paying more and more for a worse experience. Contrast that with the home experience. Between Netflix, HBO Now, Disney+ and the others, plus just renting streams of newer movies, there has never been a wider selection of movies available at better prices than a movie ticket, and they look pretty darn good on my 4K HDR TV that was less than a grand. I can save a fortune on snacks and drinks, I can pause when I need to take a leak, back it up if I couldn't understand that bit of dialogue, etc. I do still enjoy the communal experience of going to see the big highly specialized movie on opening night with other huge fans, e.g. midnight premier of the latest Marvel or Star Wars movie, but the life stage I'm in I haven't made it to one of those in years. The sneak preview I went to for the first Avengers movie was one of the coolest movie experiences of my life, and that was a long time ago. I digress.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Nov 13, 2019 10:12:03 GMT -5
One response I do hear is, "I can't afford it." Well, currently, I can't afford a Porsche, but I am not going to steal one. At the risk of veering too far off topic, and mods feel free to slap me or move this if needed: You wouldn't steal one, but would you buy a reverse-engineered knockoff sold for 1/10th the price? If you had a 3D printer that was theoretically big enough to print a Porsche, would you print your own for just cost of materials if it was functionally identical? I'm not saying I would, but it makes for an interesting thought exercise IMO. To play devil's advocate, my cinema attendance has drastically declined because the experience has become abysmal more often than not while the home viewing experience gets better and better. I cannot remember the last time I saw a movie where there wasn't at least one person, and usually many people, talking during the movie, whipping out their phone, texting, whispering, even chatting conversationally. The prices keep going up, so I'm paying more and more for a worse experience. Contrast that with the home experience. Between Netflix, HBO Now, Disney+ and the others, plus just renting streams of newer movies, there has never been a wider selection of movies available at better prices than a movie ticket, and they look pretty darn good on my 4K HDR TV that was less than a grand. I can save a fortune on snacks and drinks, I can pause when I need to take a leak, back it up if I couldn't understand that bit of dialogue, etc. I do still enjoy the communal experience of going to see the big highly specialized movie on opening night with other huge fans, e.g. midnight premier of the latest Marvel or Star Wars movie, but the life stage I'm in I haven't made it to one of those in years. The sneak preview I went to for the first Avengers movie was one of the coolest movie experiences of my life, and that was a long time ago. I digress. I actually enjoy going to the theater but you would have to pay me to go to opening night of a big movie (Marvel, Star Wars, etc.). I have zero interest in huge throngs of people jostling each other and generally being a pain when I can wait a week or two and go to a Sunday matinee, when 50% of the population will not enter a theater, and have at worst a half full theater.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2019 10:54:59 GMT -5
It is important that I state the fact that I don't blame a decline in cinema attendance solely on piracy. There are many, many other factors.
I don't go to the cinema much nowadays for the reasons impulse described. I was sat next to a clown once - whose phone was ringing constantly. People can't keep off their phones in the cinema, and it does inevitably lead to conflict. One guy ignored my complaints once, so I did go and tell an employee. Sadly, the time spent doing that is time not spent watching the film.
Unless you're a neurosurgeon on call, I don't see why you need to have your phone on in the cinema 24/7. Some people have defended this, e.g. they'll say something like, "What if a person has a sick relative at home?" I hate hypothetical arguments. Are we saying that every person in a cinema who takes out their phone is checking on a sick relative? It's more likely they're checking Instagram or sharing their views about a scene to their 20 Twitter followers, none of whom really care.
So I go to the cinema less. And I like it. As a kid, I remember waiting 9 months or more for a cinema movie to come to cable or VHS. It took a long time for E.T. to come to 'free' TV. Nowadays, well I bought Shazam when the Blu-ray came out - and that film was only released back in April. In my home, I can watch things undisturbed. And then pause it if needed.
In a nutshell, I'd never blame piracy for the decline in cinema attendance. It's only one factor, I'm certain. The complaints raised by Impulse (and myself) are complaints I hear from others. Someone I knew told me he stopped going to the cinema with one friend as this person could not keep off his phone.
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Post by impulse on Nov 13, 2019 10:59:26 GMT -5
I actually enjoy going to the theater but you would have to pay me to go to opening night of a big movie (Marvel, Star Wars, etc.). I have zero interest in huge throngs of people jostling each other and generally being a pain when I can wait a week or two and go to a Sunday matinee, when 50% of the population will not enter a theater, and have at worst a half full theater. I hear you, though I actually misspoke. I used to really enjoy the midnight premiers and early screenings where the only people there are dedicated super fans like you. While there are crowds and noise, it's usually similar noise in laughing at the same stuff I am, etc, generally less generic bad movie behavior. Well, it was 10-15 years ago anyway. I don't know now. You're right, regular opening night to the general public is atrocious because that's when all the riff raff come out so they can tweet about having "seen" the newest hot movie.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Nov 13, 2019 11:43:01 GMT -5
Our local theater also has a "VIP Auditorium." It's only 50 seats that recline and are extra wide. Nobody under 16 is allowed. And it's only a couple of bucks more. Well well worth it. I'll go see movies there that I might not otherwise see.
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Post by badwolf on Nov 13, 2019 12:51:54 GMT -5
One response I do hear is, "I can't afford it." Well, currently, I can't afford a Porsche, but I am not going to steal one. "Extremists in this debate love to say 'You wouldn’t go into Barnes & Noble and take a book off of the shelf without paying; why should it be any different with online music?' The difference is, of course, that when you take a book from Barnes & Noble, it has one less book to sell. By contrast, when you take an MP3 from a computer network, there is not one less CD that can be sold. The physics of piracy of the intangible are different from the physics of piracy of the tangible." ― Lawrence Lessig You're taking a sale away from someone who needs it to pay the bills. Whether it's a physical item or not is irrelevant.
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