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Post by Duragizer on Nov 13, 2019 16:59:06 GMT -5
"Extremists in this debate love to say 'You wouldn’t go into Barnes & Noble and take a book off of the shelf without paying; why should it be any different with online music?' The difference is, of course, that when you take a book from Barnes & Noble, it has one less book to sell. By contrast, when you take an MP3 from a computer network, there is not one less CD that can be sold. The physics of piracy of the intangible are different from the physics of piracy of the tangible." ― Lawrence Lessig You're taking a sale away from someone who needs it to pay the bills. Whether it's a physical item or not is irrelevant. Or a sale away from a multi-millionaire/billionaire who wants it to pay for a new yacht. At the end of the day, piracy isn't a black-or-white issue. There are valid reasons to do it, and there are valid reasons not to. Personally, I don't pirate troves of stuff. I'll download a movie, a couple episodes of a TV show, or a comic to check them out, but I always delete the files afterward; if I like them, I'll seek out physical copies to buy legally. I support small businesses and independent creators whenever I can.
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Post by impulse on Nov 13, 2019 17:41:34 GMT -5
Our local theater also has a "VIP Auditorium." It's only 50 seats that recline and are extra wide. Nobody under 16 is allowed. And it's only a couple of bucks more. Well well worth it. I'll go see movies there that I might not otherwise see. Ah, I'm envious. It may be where I live, but even the expensive, $25 per-assigned seat theaters here are infested with rude people. I once got up and moved because a couple arrived late, sat a few seats from me and literally chatted as if they were at home alone and not in a half full theater full of people. Who spends that much money to not listen to a movie? I wish we had Alamo Draft House here. You're taking a sale away from someone who needs it to pay the bills. Whether it's a physical item or not is irrelevant. A theoretical sale. A download is not necessarily a lost sale. That is where the ethics get a little tricky with digital, non-scarce items. Again, I buy my media personally, but it's a grayer issue than with physical items.
You're taking a sale away from someone who needs it to pay the bills. Whether it's a physical item or not is irrelevant. Or a sale away from a multi-millionaire/billionaire who wants it to pay for a new yacht. At the end of the day, piracy isn't a black-or-white issue. There are valid reasons to do it, and there are valid reasons not to. Personally, I don't pirate troves of stuff. I'll download a movie, a couple episodes of a TV show, or a comic to check them out, but I always delete the files afterward; if I like them, I'll seek out physical copies to buy legally. I support small businesses and independent creators whenever I can.
Gabe Newell, founder of Valve/Steam, famously said (paraphrasing) "piracy is not a price issue, it's a service issue." Some people will never pay for anything, they are a lost cause. I'm not sure how big it is, but your opinion of using piracy as a demo/preview is not uncommon. There are a number of times I've wanted to try a game but wasn't sure if it would run on my PC or run well, and without a demo I just did without. Maybe a demo doesn't make sense from a cost perspective, but maybe it does. Interesting topic.
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Post by EdoBosnar on Nov 13, 2019 17:53:46 GMT -5
Used book stores are a grey area I guess. Dan Simmons infamously said that he hates them. (...) Man, I hope he never finds out about libraries...
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Post by tarkintino on Nov 13, 2019 19:19:15 GMT -5
Used book and used music stores are a perfectly legitimate part of the consumer economy. Sellers have no moral right to prevent resale. Agreed. Moreover, all creations age / no longer published / produced and simply become old. No one can assume / demand that a fan loses his right to buy a work in the secondary / used market because they missed it when it was first released. No one controls timing, budget, awareness and all other intangibles that all lead to the decision to buy anything.
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Post by beccabear67 on Nov 13, 2019 19:35:27 GMT -5
Human beings invented comic books and music and movies, human being invented money = it's all relative. I'll render unto Caesar what I'm able.
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Post by badwolf on Nov 13, 2019 20:53:35 GMT -5
You're taking a sale away from someone who needs it to pay the bills. Whether it's a physical item or not is irrelevant. Or a sale away from a multi-millionaire/billionaire who wants it to pay for a new yacht. Relatively few musicians are millionaires. Most are just trying to make a living. I'm not going to chastise you if you download a Madonna album, but people of that "rank" are really just the tip of the iceberg.
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Post by badwolf on Nov 13, 2019 21:03:02 GMT -5
You're taking a sale away from someone who needs it to pay the bills. Whether it's a physical item or not is irrelevant. A theoretical sale. A download is not necessarily a lost sale. That is where the ethics get a little tricky with digital, non-scarce items. Again, I buy my media personally, but it's a grayer issue than with physical items.
Or a sale away from a multi-millionaire/billionaire who wants it to pay for a new yacht. At the end of the day, piracy isn't a black-or-white issue. There are valid reasons to do it, and there are valid reasons not to. Personally, I don't pirate troves of stuff. I'll download a movie, a couple episodes of a TV show, or a comic to check them out, but I always delete the files afterward; if I like them, I'll seek out physical copies to buy legally. I support small businesses and independent creators whenever I can.
Gabe Newell, founder of Valve/Steam, famously said (paraphrasing) "piracy is not a price issue, it's a service issue." Some people will never pay for anything, they are a lost cause. I'm not sure how big it is, but your opinion of using piracy as a demo/preview is not uncommon. There are a number of times I've wanted to try a game but wasn't sure if it would run on my PC or run well, and without a demo I just did without. Maybe a demo doesn't make sense from a cost perspective, but maybe it does. Interesting topic.
Okay yeah, people can be using it to try before they buy, but I think most people probably wouldn't buy in any case. And with things like Spotify, Bandcamp, etc. (even Amazon lets you preview everything) there really isn't any need to do that any more.
Back when MP3s first came out (as a format, not an item for sale) I downloaded a lot of stuff and didn't really think about it. I guess I thought it was like taping an album for your friend, though of course filesharing is like taping it for thousands of friends, not just one or two. Then social networking came along and I started getting connected with a lot of indie artists who really did need the income to pay the bills and buy food and I had an epiphany. I deleted everything I downloaded and began a process of purchasing the stuff I really liked and wanted to keep. I feel a lot better about it now.
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Post by beccabear67 on Nov 13, 2019 22:28:45 GMT -5
OT: MP3s are worth nothing to me, I can't imagine paying for them, nor really keeping much in the format. I can usually hear the difference easily. Unfortunately some commercial CD and vinyl releases can also sound like limited noise-gated processed junk of the lowest bitrate MP3. If you do like MP3s and that's your go-to favorite you should pay for them if you haven't made your own from an earlier format. I transfer vinyl to lossless wav format, it takes up a lot more room but think of that 4/5ths or 5/6ths you are missing from just a 320 bitrate MP3! MP3s are acceptable for old old music for me though, like 1920s 78s or spoken word/radio shows.
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Post by rberman on Nov 13, 2019 22:55:26 GMT -5
OT: MP3s are worth nothing to me, I can't imagine paying for them, nor really keeping much in the format. I can usually hear the difference easily. Unfortunately some commercial CD and vinyl releases can also sound like limited noise-gated processed junk of the lowest bitrate MP3. If you do like MP3s and that's your go-to favorite you should pay for them if you haven't made your own from an earlier format. I transfer vinyl to lossless wav format, it takes up a lot more room but think of that 4/5ths or 5/6ths you are missing from just a 320 bitrate MP3! MP3s are acceptable for old old music for me though, like 1920s 78s or spoken word/radio shows. I love music, but I have never noticed anything wrong with MP3s. Perhaps because I never just sit and listen quietly with headphones; there's always something going on in the car, or a shouting child in the house, etc.
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Post by Icctrombone on Nov 14, 2019 7:21:42 GMT -5
Years ago I used to pay a monthly fee to a site to download music from a file sharing group. It worked well for me but It was shutdown. I'm guessing all similar sites were shut down. Now I use Spotify and just listen to ads instead of subscribing. As for downloading comics for free ? I would be afraid of getting a virus or spyware to do it. Instead I subscribe to Marvel Unlimited and Comixology.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2019 7:28:41 GMT -5
Used book and used music stores are a perfectly legitimate part of the consumer economy. Sellers have no moral right to prevent resale. Agreed. Moreover, all creations age / no longer published / produced and simply become old. No one can assume / demand that a fan loses his right to buy a work in the secondary / used market because they missed it when it was first released. No one controls timing, budget, awareness and all other intangibles that all lead to the decision to buy anything. This is true. I discovered an Airwolf graphic novel at a car boot sale. I had no idea it had ever been released, I read nothing about it at the time. It doesn't even have its own Wikipedia page (last time I checked). Being an Airwolf fan, I would have bought it had I known about it at the time, but seeing it at a car boot sale was an opportunity I wouldn't pass up.
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Post by Cei-U! on Nov 14, 2019 8:10:40 GMT -5
Years ago I used to pay a monthly fee to a site to download music from a file sharing group. It worked well for me but It was shutdown. I'm guessing all similar sites were shut down. Now I use Spotify and just listen to ads instead of subscribing. As for downloading comics for free ? I would be afraid of getting a virus or spyware to do it. Instead I subscribe to Marvel Unlimited and Comixology. Yeah, this is me too (at least the part about music). A few quick commercials is a small price to pay for access to the 250+ albums in my Spotify library.
Cei-U! I summon the groovy tunes!
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Post by wildfire2099 on Nov 14, 2019 8:22:11 GMT -5
You're taking a sale away from someone who needs it to pay the bills. Whether it's a physical item or not is irrelevant. Or a sale away from a multi-millionaire/billionaire who wants it to pay for a new yacht. At the end of the day, piracy isn't a black-or-white issue. There are valid reasons to do it, and there are valid reasons not to. Personally, I don't pirate troves of stuff. I'll download a movie, a couple episodes of a TV show, or a comic to check them out, but I always delete the files afterward; if I like them, I'll seek out physical copies to buy legally. I support small businesses and independent creators whenever I can. There isn't a REASON for piracy.. you can justify it in your own mind (as you have) but the bottom line is it's still theft. I think what alot of people don't appreciate is how hard it is to make a living creatively.. do we want to be in a world where there's no editors, no IP, just mountains of fan fiction? That wouldn't be great, IMO. Those multi-billionaires might be annoying, but they earned their money (or someone did at some point, maybe previous generations), is it fair to punish them because they're more successful that you?
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Post by rberman on Nov 14, 2019 8:23:28 GMT -5
Years ago I used to pay a monthly fee to a site to download music from a file sharing group. It worked well for me but It was shutdown. I'm guessing all similar sites were shut down. Now I use Spotify and just listen to ads instead of subscribing. As for downloading comics for free ? I would be afraid of getting a virus or spyware to do it. Instead I subscribe to Marvel Unlimited and Comixology. Yeah, this is me too (at least the part about music). A few quick commercials is a small price to pay for access to the 250+ albums in my Spotify library.
Cei-U! I summon the groovy tunes!
On the production side, it's hard not to draw a causal line between the minimal price that people under 30 are willing to pay for music (whether because of Spotify, YouTube, or just plain ol' piracy) and the minimal production values of modern music, including the widespread use of AutoTune. Who's going to compensate artists for spending more money to make their work sound better? Nobody. So they don't.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Nov 14, 2019 8:26:55 GMT -5
Yeah, this is me too (at least the part about music). A few quick commercials is a small price to pay for access to the 250+ albums in my Spotify library.
Cei-U! I summon the groovy tunes!
On the production side, it's hard not to draw a causal line between the minimal price that people under 30 are willing to pay for music (whether because of Spotify, YouTube, or just plain ol' piracy) and the minimal production values of modern music, including the widespread use of AutoTune. Who's going to compensate artists for spending more money to make their work sound better? Nobody. So they don't. That's a great point I've never thought about. It also ties into the fact that all the money made these days is on live shows.. which means personality/fandom potential means more than talent.
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