shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Aug 15, 2016 15:31:10 GMT -5
Jim Starlin's Thanos Saga II /
The Infinity Gauntlet (1990-1991) As a continuation of our discussion of Jim Starlin's Thanos Saga, this thread will focus on Thanos' return more than a decade later in the pages of Silver Surfer #34-38, Thanos Quest #1-2, Silver Surfer #44-50, and The Infinity Gauntlet #1-6. I will be reading these stories and discussing my informal thoughts as I go, but this is not a review thread per se, and I invite all to share their thoughts on this work, as well as to read along with me. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Aug 15, 2016 15:38:14 GMT -5
Silver Surfer #34-38
Not much going on here. I've always wanted to see how Thanos comes back after more than a decade of being dead, but the explanation is just "eh, Death can bring back whoever she wants whenever she wants." Because (of course) the cosmic imbalance of life and death didn't get out of whack until precisely then, right?
Now I LOVE Silver Surfer. He's one of my favorite characters ever, but no one other than Kirby and Lee ever seemed to know what to do with him (well, now there's Dan Slott, but that's beside the point). Anyway, Starlin does no better with the character. He's obnoxiously cliche and accomplishes absolutely nothing across the span of five issues. Thanos is informed that The Surfer poses the greatest threat to him of all his potential rivals, but we're never given any suggestion as to why. the Surfer comes off as unimaginative and...stupid. Combine that with his being severely under-powered against Thanos even before he acquires the first of the soul/infinity gems, and I'm left wondering why the heck The Surfer is even in these stories. Why not just tell a story with Thanos as the protagonist and no desperate attempt to make some good guy no one else wants to write his arch-nemesis?
Fortunately, Marvel is about to do just that.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Aug 15, 2016 15:44:15 GMT -5
Thanos Quest #1-2
Look, I have never in all my years of comic reading ever uttered this phrase before, but here we go: "The '90s version was better." It truly seems like everything that was wrong or missing in the original Thanos Saga is being carefully corrected here. I complained about the Soul Gems seeming to be a contrivance that came out of nowhere, our never getting an explanation for how Thanos acquired them, a truly unimaginative use for them by the climax, and absolutely no exploration of how Thanos' failures and successes affected his relationship with Death. THESE are the things that fascinated me, not tedious endless struggles with Iron Man, Daredevil, Captain Marvel, The Avengers, or Warlock. This is the good stuff, and Starlin is finally giving it to us, free to tell the story he (perhaps) always wanted to now that he doesn't have to make some third rate superhero the protagonist of the story. Seeing things from Thanos' perspective is fascinating and creates the uncomfortable internal conflict of compelling us to root for him even when we know we shouldn't.
And, while I truly love Starlin's pencils when he's at his best, Ron Lim's art is superior. That's also something I never say about '90s artists.
This story truly seemed to be the best of all Starlin had been striving for back in the day. It will be rewarding next to re-read The Infinity Gauntlet, finally having experienced all the past history leading up to that saga.
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Post by brutalis on Aug 15, 2016 16:21:08 GMT -5
See what happens when a writer is "obsessed" with a subject and it is allowed to percolate and ferment within his imagination for a decade until he has if not perfected his visions but completely searched out the juicy and tastiest aspects and creatively with the least amount or best of editorial interference is allowed to express himself.
And having Lim take over art chores allowed Starlin to focus on the story without becoming bogged down trying to finish in a rush with each issue. While Lim's cosmic wasn't as spectacularly creative as Starlin or Perez he delivered the goods with being able to highlight so many characters visually while presenting a smoothly flowing advancing story without becoming lost.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Aug 15, 2016 17:57:31 GMT -5
Thanos Quest #1-2Look, I have never in all my years of comic reading ever uttered this phrase before, but here we go: "The '90s version was better." It truly seems like everything that was wrong or missing in the original Thanos Saga is being carefully corrected here. I complained about the Soul Gems seeming to be a contrivance that came out of nowhere, our never getting an explanation for how Thanos acquired them, a truly unimaginative use for them by the climax, and absolutely no exploration of how Thanos' failures and successes affected his relationship with Death. THESE are the things that fascinated me, not tedious endless struggles with Iron Man, Daredevil, Captain Marvel, The Avengers, or Warlock. This is the good stuff, and Starlin is finally giving it to us, free to tell the story he (perhaps) always wanted to now that he doesn't have to make some third rate superhero the protagonist of the story. Seeing things from Thanos' perspective is fascinating and creates the uncomfortable internal conflict of compelling us to root for him even when we know we shouldn't. And, while I truly love Starlin's pencils when he's at his best, Ron Lim's art is superior. That's also something I never say about '90s artists. This story truly seemed to be the best of all Starlin had been striving for back in the day. It will be rewarding next to re-read The Infinity Gauntlet, finally having experienced all the past history leading up to that saga. Colour me surprised! We usually have similar tastes in comics!!! I thought the '90s Thanos stuff was a tedious retread of things that had been done far better in the '70s, and had to wait for the recent trilogy of hardcovers to regain some interest in Starlin's mad titan! While the gems had been left mysterious and unexplained in the original saga, here they were given a definite (as well as limiting and sort of irrational*) explanation. I like things to remain unexplained in cosmic stories, as it gives them a grandeur that explanations diminish. I mean, wasn't Galactus more awesome when he was a planet eater of unfathomable origin than when we learned he was just an alien who was exposed to radioactivity? The plot of the Infinity series also got to be very repetitive, with a bunch of heroes ganging up against Thanos. That had been new in Avengers annual #7 but got old very quickly. The art by Perez in the Infinity gauntlet was all right, but the only time I liked Ron Lim's was in the recent hardcover in which the Warlock-Thanos conflict was seemingly resolved for good. Different readers, different perceptions!!! * I mean, if you have a gem that controls reality, why do you need the other five? You can alter reality at will to read minds, get infinite power, steal souls and what have you... Also, how can Thanos claim that the gems are more powerful than a cosmic cube, since it, too, controls reality? All a cosmic cube owner has to do is wish the gems to cease existing and there would go the comparison! |
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Post by coinilius on Aug 15, 2016 18:35:13 GMT -5
Ron Lim was such a great artist during the 90's and the Infinity books - I thought he was great on Silver Surfer.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Aug 15, 2016 18:36:48 GMT -5
So I didn't realize that there's more key story elements to follow prior to Infinity Gauntlet. Looks like I've more to read!
Yeah, I know I'd get the whole thing in flashback if I just pressed on, but I want to see what Starlin does with Warlock's return.
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Post by Icctrombone on Aug 15, 2016 19:01:39 GMT -5
Shax, you're in for a treat when Warlock becomes resurrected but it happens in Infinity Gauntlet #1. The reason Starlin used the Surfer is that he was the only active cosmic character still standing. Marvel and Warlock had both bit the bullet at that point.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Aug 15, 2016 20:21:01 GMT -5
People like stories I don't and praise artists I dislike? This shall not stand!!! I swear, if I had a cosmic cube...  |
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Aug 15, 2016 21:04:23 GMT -5
See now this is my favorite Thanos too. I much prefer this to Thanos saga and him in Warlock. And Lim is my favorite Surfer. Just because I see him as a whole different Surfer from Lee writing him with Kirby and Buscema. I'd like to add more but it's been a day and I'm about done cooking spaghetti and going to have a few beers. I'll give you more thoughts on your posts tomorrow.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Aug 15, 2016 21:42:14 GMT -5
Shax, you're in for a treat when Warlock becomes resurrected but it happens in Infinity Gauntlet #1. Infinity Gauntlet #1 provides a flashback of Warlock's reincarnation in Silver Surfer #46:  My big criticism of Infinity Gauntlet upon previous readings is that the conflict is already over. When issue #1 begins, all the big twists have already gone down and the climax has already been achieved. It's just recaps of what has already transpired and then waiting around for Thanos to undo himself. I hope I'll see it differently this time. |
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Post by foxley on Aug 15, 2016 23:03:35 GMT -5
Shax, you're in for a treat when Warlock becomes resurrected but it happens in Infinity Gauntlet #1. The reason Starlin used the Surfer is that he was the only active cosmic character still standing. Marvel and Warlock had both bit the bullet at that point. Infinity Gauntlet #1 provides a flashback of Warlock's reincarnation in Silver Surfer #46: My big criticism of Infinity Gauntlet upon previous readings is that the conflict is already over. When issue #1 begins, all the big twists have already gone down and the climax has already been achieved. It's just recaps of what has already transpired and then waiting around for Thanos to undo himself. I hope I'll see it differently this time. And this is one of my big issues with Thanos. That no one is allowed to defeat him. He must somehow 'undo' himself. I assume this series is when Thanos fully became Jim Starlin's Mary Sue. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Aug 15, 2016 23:08:08 GMT -5
Infinity Gauntlet #1 provides a flashback of Warlock's reincarnation in Silver Surfer #46: My big criticism of Infinity Gauntlet upon previous readings is that the conflict is already over. When issue #1 begins, all the big twists have already gone down and the climax has already been achieved. It's just recaps of what has already transpired and then waiting around for Thanos to undo himself. I hope I'll see it differently this time. And this is one of my big issues with Thanos. That no one is allowed to defeat him. He must somehow 'undo' himself. I assume this series is when Thanos fully became Jim Starlin's Mary Sue. Personally, I think that's what made Thanos fascinating. Every other would-be conqueror is thwarted at the last minute. Thanos was an exploration of what would happen if the good guys couldn't stop him. Thanos undoing himself may seem like a cop out, but when you stop to consider it, what would any mortal do with all that power? They'd probably existentially crap themselves and do the exact same thing. I don't know that this makes Thanos a Mary Sue. He's smarter than everyone else, and (as a result of this) ultimately more powerful than everyone else, but in the end, he's just as sad and incomplete as the rest of us, if not moreso. Both the end of Thanos Quest and Infinity Gauntlet make this painfully clear. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Aug 16, 2016 1:19:56 GMT -5
Silver Surfer #44-50
Mostly fantastic. Starlin manages to keep The Surfer largely out of the picture so that Thanos and (eventually) Warlock can take center stage. All the great info recapped in Infinity Gauntlet #1 is even more exciting and intriguing here -- Mephisto, Nebula, and the dilemma of Thanos' limited consciousness being in possession of such limitless powers -- it all pops. Starlin is in his prime.
My only real complaints:
1. In the beginning, it really looked like Starlin was setting Drax up to be the hero of the original Thanos Saga. I get why that didn't happen -- Starlin had to use Captain Marvel or Warlock depending upon which book he was working on at the time -- but Drax's will, sad backstory, and opportunity for healing by the close still made him a compelling character worthy of more attention than he got in the original saga. So Starlin resurrecting him as a brain-damaged lousy imitation of The Hulk (which even Thanos acknowledges) just seems a little unfair to the character. Drax should be anything but comic relief.
2. As I noted in my write-up of Silver Surfer #34-38, Starlin's Surfer is obnoxious. And yet, much as when Starlin was writing the boring and unrelatable overly militaristic Captain Marvel back in the day, the unlikable personality is all setup for a major change. Captain Marvel met Eon and gained cosmic awareness, and Surfer learned Galactus had tampered with his soul in order to make him less human, and he got this reversed. It's a cool idea; it makes a lot of sense, but it also makes The Surfer a thoroughly unlikable character until this matter gets resolved in SS #48. The best story in this entire stretch is #46, where SS is unconscious for the entire issue.
3. #44-47 are the big setup for the Infinity Gauntlet. #48-50 feel more like Starlin is killing time.
But, beyond these factors, this is one amazing read that makes a necessary companion to The Infinity Gauntlet (which I'll be reading next!)
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Post by foxley on Aug 16, 2016 1:35:48 GMT -5
And this is one of my big issues with Thanos. That no one is allowed to defeat him. He must somehow 'undo' himself. I assume this series is when Thanos fully became Jim Starlin's Mary Sue. Personally, I think that's what made Thanos fascinating. Every other would-be conqueror is thwarted at the last minute. Thanos was an exploration of what would happen if the good guys couldn't stop him. Thanos undoing himself may seem like a cop out, but when you stop to consider it, what would any mortal do with all that power? They'd probably existentially crap themselves and do the exact same thing. I don't know that this makes Thanos a Mary Sue. He's smarter than everyone else, and (as a result of this) ultimately more powerful than everyone else, but in the end, he's just as sad and incomplete as the rest of us, if not moreso. Both the end of Thanos Quest and Infinity Gauntlet make this painfully clear. Smarter than everyone else; more powerful than everyone else; completely unbeatable. Sounds like a Mary Sue to me. Surely if the good guys couldn't stop him, he would just kill everything in the universe? That is his stated goal, after all, and if he is so much smarter and more powerful than everyone else, and completely unbeatable. what else is he going to do? But different strokes for different folks, I guess. What you find 'fascinating', I find insufferable. |
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