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Post by Rob Allen on May 21, 2019 12:09:44 GMT -5
If Earth were flat, cats would have knocked everything off the edge by now.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2019 12:11:04 GMT -5
If Earth were flat, cats would have knocked everything off the edge by now. Indeed. I always wondered if 'flat earth' advocates think the other planets are flat, too.
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Post by Prince Hal on May 21, 2019 12:18:28 GMT -5
Nothing akin to the flat Earth argument as the Earth is round - and I wouldn't read any flat earth books. But some books have made a compelling case both for and against the Shakespeare authorship question. People I respect, who are much more intelligent than I am, have posted about it. So it's definitely something I enjoy reading about. And, again, nothing like the Flat Earth "argument" as most sane, rational people know the Earth is a globe. The "authorship argument" is no different. Shakespeare of Stratford wrote the plays and poetry attributed to him. Did he borrow and even co-write -- in a very few instances? Yes. And these have been identified. ( Henry VIII, and the Hecate scene in Macbeth, for example.) Others may be someday. But there is neither logic nor reason to any of the propositions -- they aren't arguments -- that Shakespeare was in reality Marlowe, Oxford, Bacon, or any combination thereof. There is, ironically, less evidence about how and why Delia Bacon invented her theories about the authorship of Shakespeare's plays back in the 1830s and '40s than there is about Shakespeare's being the writer of the plays. She's a fascinating character in many ways, but her notion that Bacon was the author (which had nothing to do with her surname) eventually boiled down to her discovery of a cipher within the plays whose secret she refused to reveal. This is not the stuff of scientific or literary inquiry. Nonetheless, as always happens when confronted with the truth of Occam's razor, there will always be those who find inspiration in conspiracy theories, and the floodgates were opened.
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Post by beccabear67 on May 21, 2019 12:20:25 GMT -5
There was a Channel 4 documentary that investigated the tomb of Shakespeare a few years ago and found it either empty or that the head was missing depending on how the sonar is interpreted (plus an old report from when the tomb was disturbed once way back that there was nowt but dust in it). It's a bit like those JFK in Dallas things where there is 'puzzling evidence', instead of a magic bullet they make a lot about the tomb having no name put on it way back unlike others, and the curse of sorts warning it not be disturbed. Anne Hathaway is buried in the same church in Stratford yet not that close to this tomb of her husband. Cue dramatic music here... Oh, how very odd!
It's all a big mess but now it's pretty much officially recognized as a mess, though as I said, pretty much unknowable other than general outlines. So much was festooned onto things over the centuries, it's a bit like all the thorn bushes personally planted by Jesus when he was backpacking in Europe, or the furniture his father Joseph made while staying in Shropshire.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2019 12:22:21 GMT -5
Prince Hal, would you be willing to read the books that advocate for another author (or advocate against Shakespeare)?
For me, it came about after watching the 2011 film Anonymous. Prior to that (I had read some of the books), I hadn't thought of or maybe even heard of the authorship dispute. But after that film, I bought two pro-Shakespeare books and two books that provided a counter-argument.
It's interesting, whatever conclusions I have drawn. I still don't know what to think. I know I don't believe in a flat Earth. I doubt Nessie exists (I'm almost certain it doesn't). With the Shakespeare authorship question, I just wanted to explore both sides. It's not about being inspired by conspiracy theories or anything like that. At the end of the day, I read the books and they have no effect on anyone else. It's something to read while waiting for a fare. And if any other books, for or against, are published, I'll happily read those.
EDIT:
The two books recommended to me (by a comic artist on his forum) are Shakespeare Identified by J. Thomas Looney, and Shakespeare's Unorthodox Biography by Diana Price.
I doubt either is in print now (my copies were second-hand).
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Post by Roquefort Raider on May 21, 2019 13:43:54 GMT -5
If Earth were flat, cats would have knocked everything off the edge by now. Indeed. I always wondered if 'flat earth' advocates think the other planets are flat, too. It depends on who you're talking to; some Flat-earthers accept that the other planets are spherical, and others will go so far as to claim space itself does not exist. There is quite a spectrum between ordinary fact deniers and full d ur rr droolpblbbblteeg uuuhs.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on May 21, 2019 13:50:26 GMT -5
This is not the stuff of scientific or literary inquiry. Nonetheless, as always happens when confronted with the truth of Occam's razor, there will always be those who find inspiration in conspiracy theories, and the floodgates were opened. Nevertheless, I got to admit that the concept of Shakespeare's plays having been written by Bigfoot has a certain appeal!
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2019 14:14:52 GMT -5
Indeed. I always wondered if 'flat earth' advocates think the other planets are flat, too. It depends on who you're talking to; some Flat-earthers accept that the other planets are spherical, and others will go so far as to claim space itself does not exist. There is quite a spectrum between ordinary fact deniers and full d ur rr droolpblbbblteeg uuuhs. Space does not exist?! So, what are we? We live on a globe that is in, well, what?
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Post by Roquefort Raider on May 21, 2019 14:39:48 GMT -5
It depends on who you're talking to; some Flat-earthers accept that the other planets are spherical, and others will go so far as to claim space itself does not exist. There is quite a spectrum between ordinary fact deniers and full d ur rr droolpblbbblteeg uuuhs. Space does not exist?! So, what are we? We live on a globe that is in, well, what? We apparently live on a flat disk with a big transparent dome above it, and the planets and stars are just little lights that move on the other side of the dome. Gravity doesn't exist; things fall down because of "electromagnetism*", "density**" or just because that's what things do. NASA of course faked all the images of space that we have, because nothing can go beyond the dome. Most of the Fat Earth-No Space folks seem to adhere to a very literal interpretation of biblical scripture, insisting that there really is water above and below the Earth as per Genesis 1: 6-8 I'm sure that the people funding the Vatican observatory sigh despondently when they hear that! * those are the terms they use, but they don't seem to have all that firm a grasp of what they're talking about. How could density make things rise up or go down if there was no gravity?
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Post by Prince Hal on May 21, 2019 15:35:49 GMT -5
Prince Hal, would you be willing to read the books that advocate for another author (or advocate against Shakespeare)? For me, it came about after watching the 2011 film Anonymous. Prior to that (I had read some of the books), I hadn't thought of or maybe even heard of the authorship dispute. But after that film, I bought two pro-Shakespeare books and two books that provided a counter-argument. It's interesting, whatever conclusions I have drawn. I still don't know what to think. I know I don't believe in a flat Earth. I doubt Nessie exists (I'm almost certain it doesn't). With the Shakespeare authorship question, I just wanted to explore both sides. It's not about being inspired by conspiracy theories or anything like that. At the end of the day, I read the books and they have no effect on anyone else. It's something to read while waiting for a fare. And if any other books, for or against, are published, I'll happily read those. EDIT: The two books recommended to me (by a comic artist on his forum) are Shakespeare Identified by J. Thomas Looney, and Shakespeare's Unorthodox Biography by Diana Price. I doubt either is in print now (my copies were second-hand). Okay, you asked. Looney, whose name was pronounced "Loney," was the member of a pseudo-religious sect of the Religion of Humanity, who worshipped Shakespeare, literally singing hymns to him and other literary giants like Homer and Dante, as well as to a few famous religious figures. They named one of their months "Shakespeare," decorated their "church" with busts and icons of Shakespeare, and made pilgrimages to Stratford. Their devotion sprang from the sect/cult's belief in the significance of inherited titles, status, degree and the feudal hierarchy in general, all of which they believed Shakespeare demonstrated in his plays and poetry. They posited that Shakespeare "lived sufficiently near the moral order bequeathed by the Middle Ages to spontaneously submit himself to it." They inferred somehow that Hamlet's "What is a man?" inquiry was his acknowledgment that "selfish desires... need control." I'll be as brief as I can without trying to sound too flip. Loney wanted to be in charge of this bunch. He didn't get the job. The Positivist Church soon folded up its tents and and went home. Loney was pissed and took out his rage on poor Shakespeare and, like so many others who venture on this fool's errand, began and underpinned his "theory" with two givens: Authors don't write for money; and everything every writer writes is drawn from his or her life. His work is filled with the "logic" of phrases like "must have," and "had to have," as in Shakespeare must have had help from a better writer; Shakespeare had to have been writing for future generations; he had to have been a well traveled, well educated Catholic aristocrat, trained in music, falconry and the arts of war and politics. he started with "Venus and Adonis" b/c it was Shakespeare's first published work, compared it to other poems of the time, found one that was written in a similar style (by Edward de Vere), and "Eureka!" he had uncovered the secret of the ages. It's unadulterated, unscholarly, illogical, selective, unscientific nonsense motivated by a fit of pique. But go ahead, read poor angry Looney as we await the discovery of one shred of documentary evidence linking De Vere to even a word of what Shakespeare wrote. Oh, Price. (I did a double-take b/c I saw "Diana Prince" first.) is essentially more of the same mix of snobbery and willful ignorance. In her case, she ignores primary sources, ignores historical fact about life in the Elizabethan and Jacobean theatre, and stacks the deck by withholding information she's well aware of, e.g. what a grammar school education in Elizabethan England entailed. Honestly, you might as well read Fantastic Four as a textbook on space travel. Oh, and Anonymous? It reduces everything Shakespeare wrote to a painfully detailed allegory of Oxford's life. But if that floats your boat, check out all those movies about Nostradamus, Edwin Stanton and the Lincoln Conspiracy and the discovery of Noah's Ark. Read the plays instead of either of these faux-Ahabs.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on May 21, 2019 16:06:02 GMT -5
There's this intriguing bit of nobility-fellating to the idea that someone else had to write Shakespeare's work that is not just sad but flies in the face of what we can see happening in art all around us, not to mention historically. The idea that it's impossible that a country bumpkin like Shakespeare could be the greatest writer in the English language seems to ignore that Kit Marlowe (one of the usual suspects) was the son of a shoe-maker, though clearly better educated than Shakespeare. That Leonardo was the illegitimate son of a peasant girl with very little formal education. More recently that the biggest band of the 20th Century (and generally acknowledged as among the best songwriters) was made up of decidedly working class blokes from Liverpool. And that one of the seminal influences on modern music was an illegitimate, itinerant black blues musician with almost no formal schooling who died at 27.
It never ceases to amaze me how non-egalitarian people can still be. Though it clearly shouldn't.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2019 16:13:31 GMT -5
Oh, and Anonymous? It reduces everything Shakespeare wrote to a painfully detailed allegory of Oxford's life. But if that floats your boat, check out all those movies about Nostradamus, Edwin Stanton and the Lincoln Conspiracy and the discovery of Noah's Ark. Read the plays instead of either of these faux-Ahabs. I have read some of the plays. I would continue this discussion but since you're implying I believe in Nostradamus' predictions and Noah's Ark, and seem keen to mock rather than debate, I'll take my leave of this topic and wish you the best for the day. I get enough sarcasm and mocking from a minority of my passengers, a forum is the place to escape that. So, no, won't be checking out Nostradamus or Noah's Ark (neither of which I believe in). But thanks for the condescension.
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Post by Prince Hal on May 21, 2019 16:58:55 GMT -5
Oh, and Anonymous? It reduces everything Shakespeare wrote to a painfully detailed allegory of Oxford's life. But if that floats your boat, check out all those movies about Nostradamus, Edwin Stanton and the Lincoln Conspiracy and the discovery of Noah's Ark. Read the plays instead of either of these faux-Ahabs. I have read some of the plays. I would continue this discussion but since you're implying I believe in Nostradamus' predictions and Noah's Ark, and seem keen to mock rather than debate, I'll take my leave of this topic and wish you the best for the day. I get enough sarcasm and mocking from a minority of my passengers, a forum is the place to escape that. So, no, won't be checking out Nostradamus or Noah's Ark (neither of which I believe in). But thanks for the condescension. Would a smiley-face have helped? I wasn't being sarcastic. Hard-nosed, maybe, but not sarcastic. If I was mocking anyone, it was Loney and Price. I'll have to work on my tone, I guess. Keep reading the plays and leave the conspiracy theorists to natter amongst themselves.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on May 29, 2019 9:04:13 GMT -5
I am not going to pay yearly subscription fees for a computer program, thank you very much. When my version of Photoshop no longer works on modern computers, I'll switch to whatever the competition offers if it's a one-time payment kind of thing.
There! I said it.
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Post by Icctrombone on May 29, 2019 17:23:34 GMT -5
Photobucket stabbed a lot of the members of this forum in the back about a year or so ago I currently use Imgur, but if they start to charge, I might just pay the fee.
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