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Post by codystarbuck on Feb 20, 2019 18:03:37 GMT -5
I should add Batroc, for the way he has been handled over the years; but, I can't helping loving the leaping Pepe Le Pew villain. Still, I would love to get a chance to write a story that would erase the comical French stereotype and show the missed bad-ass potential. Marvel Studios gave us George St Pierre; I'm thinking Vincent Cassel, in Crimson Rivers and Mesrine, with a dash of Jean Reno, in Nikita and Leon.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Feb 20, 2019 18:05:47 GMT -5
Harley Quinn? Comic book and movie version, yes. Original BTAS version? No. Harley in the hands of Paul Dini , Bruce Timm and the rest of the gang was pure joy; a quirky character, made great by Arlene Sorkin's wonderful voicework and writing that fed those strengths. She turned out to be even better when pulled away from the Joker, as in "Harley & Ivy" and "Harley's Holiday." "Mad Love" got inside her head to see why she loves her Puddin' Once they brought her to the comics, it fell apart. In the first place, the writers were not of Paul Dini's caliber. In the second, you didn't have Sorkin adding personality to the drawings. third, you had artists who didn't date much, turning her into some kind of nerd cheesecake figure, then a Suicide Girl model/stripper. Sometimes it seems like modern comics are poison to a good idea. Well, corporate comics, anyway. I don't care one way or the other about the Batman cartoons, but the Mad Love (comic book) one shot by Dini and Timm was flat-out spectacular.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2019 18:11:13 GMT -5
"Mad Love" was eventually adapted to TV. That makes the TV adaptation an adaptation of a comic adaptation of a TV adaptation of a comic.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Feb 20, 2019 18:12:25 GMT -5
Huh. Any good?
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Post by codystarbuck on Feb 20, 2019 18:23:16 GMT -5
The episode is good; but a bit restrained, due to the episode length and the standards & practices restrictions. It would have been better as a direct-to-video movie, rather than a standard episode.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2019 18:49:02 GMT -5
I should add Batroc, for the way he has been handled over the years; but, I can't helping loving the leaping Pepe Le Pew villain. Cody, Batroc, is a Supervillain and sorry to say this ... Villains aren't included in this discussion. I have to disqualify this entry for discussion sake.
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Post by codystarbuck on Feb 20, 2019 19:36:08 GMT -5
I should add Batroc, for the way he has been handled over the years; but, I can't helping loving the leaping Pepe Le Pew villain. Cody, Batroc, is a Supervillain and sorry to say this ... Villains aren't included in this discussion. I have to disqualify this entry for discussion sake. I'm not looking for a fight; but, would point out that Batroc has been portrayed as an anti-hero, at times, who switches sides and Harley Quinn began as pure villain's moll. Lobo was also a bounty hunter/antagonist and was mostly a villain, at the start and never quite a heroic figure. So, seems like anti-heroes have been fair game. Whatever, though; if you want to stick to pure white hats, then, fine by me.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2019 19:36:41 GMT -5
What do Punisher fans GET out of the character? Comics are wish fulfillment. Superman fans want to be a good man who helps people. Punisher fans want to be - what? - angry, violent murderers? THAT'S their self-empowerment daydream? (Side-Note: Garth Ennis' Punisher MAX is as good as anything Marvel has ever published, although it made the Punisher a study in the cross-section between mental illness and trauma.) I haven't read a Punisher comic in 20 years but I would guess with the type of action movies that are popular now (Liam Neeson comes to mind) making the bad guys pay by suffering before you "remove" them is a type of wish fulfillment. People look around and feel the system isn't working. It's probably people that favor the death penalty over life in prison for violent crimes. And I may be totally wrong...
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Post by Bronze age andy on Feb 20, 2019 19:38:01 GMT -5
USAgent. That midpoint between tough guy antihero and insufferable ass.
Just an awful character.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2019 19:40:11 GMT -5
Lobo. Guy Gardner. Deadpool.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2019 20:10:02 GMT -5
I'm anti-death penalty (for numerous reasons I won't go into here), but I like the Punisher.
It's not about wish fulfilment. Not every character needs to be about that. It's just about reading exciting storylines where a character holds nothing back against society's worst. But if the Punisher was a real person, I'd be hoping police picked him up sooner rather than later...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 20, 2019 20:39:01 GMT -5
Regarding the Punisher and his ilk, simple revenge fantasies have always been popular in pop culture entertainment (Death Wish, Rambo, Mad Max, Executioner, the Taken movies, etc.) and that is certainly part of the appeal here.
I am loathe to cite a character I can't stand, as I lean towards the "there's no bad characters, only bad writers school of thinking," and I am not fond of thread whose only point is to heap on more negativity (there's way too much negativity in all of fandom already and intolerance of others who have tastes different than one's own), which is accomplishes nothing but pissing in someone else's cheerios who happen to like the stuff someone else dislikes. That said, the one character I disliked enough (at the time) to spend money to vote for killing the character was Jason Todd. I still think it was a mistake to bring him back too, but that said, if he is in a story I am reading and it is done well, I will read it (and I actually like the way the character was handled in the Titans tv series on the DC streaming service even though I don't like the character himself).
It's all about how the character is handled for me. I don't like the Punisher much, especially as the protagonist of a story, but he can work well as a foil for another character. I'm not likely to buy a Punisher book (unless there is a creator I cannot resist checking out on it), but if he were used well as a foil for a character in a book I was reading, it wouldn't drive me away from the book.
There are lots of characters who don't appeal to me, but if others like them and derive enjoyment from them, so be it, then it's a good thing those characters exist. Everyone needs things that bring joy into their lives and it's easy enough to just ignore things in entertainment that don't.
-M
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Post by Paste Pot Paul on Feb 20, 2019 23:10:34 GMT -5
Iron Man Martian Manhunter Barry Allen Prestige(Rachel Summers) Capt Marvel(Monica Rambeau)Though as Spectrum she is tolerable Quicksilver Hank Pym Moondragon Dr Druid Rage Thunderstrike Silverclaw Blue Marvel
...and that Deadpool idiot too
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Post by chadwilliam on Feb 21, 2019 0:54:45 GMT -5
Taxidriver1980 said: It's just about reading exciting storylines where a character holds nothing back against society's worst.Very well put. How a character who's been handled by the likes of Steven Grant, Mike Zeck, Mike Baron, Chuck Dixon, John Romita, Jr., Grant Ennis, Frank Miller (1980's Frank Miller) could be dismissed so easily is mindboggling. I'm not sure why The Punisher gets such a bad rap when I don't hear such venom directed at characters such as Jonah Hex whose history shares a similar violent trajectory. Perhaps it's because as someone who's never read The Executioner I don't realise how derivative Frank Castle is, but is he anymore a rip-off of Mack Bolan than Jonah Hex is of Clint Eastwood's Man without a Name character? I ask this fully admitting that I genuinely don't know the answer to that one.
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Post by chadwilliam on Feb 21, 2019 1:03:15 GMT -5
Speaking of The Punisher...
Any character who delivers a "killing you would make me no better than you" speech at the end of a story in which said villain has killed dozens/hundreds of people for the 100th or so time (see; Batman vs. The Joker).
I'm not saying I want to see superheroes go around killing people - I'm just saying that if the writers want to use a villain over and over again, don't make that villain so repulsively vile that it makes the good guy look useless every time they square off against one another.
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