shaxper
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Posts: 22,451
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Post by shaxper on Sept 21, 2021 21:49:12 GMT -5
Inching through Reads in the brief amounts of free time I get to myself lately. I'm still in the first half, where the focus is on Victor Reid and not Victor Davis. I was trying to explain the volume to Amber today and pretty much said this:
Okay, so there are two totally unrelated plots running side by side. In one, the religious leaders of every major warring faction in the region are meeting to determine how to settle their feud. In the other, a writer carelessly spends his advance on a book without reading the fine print. Neither of those sound even remotely interesting, and yet I am absolutely riveted. Sim's style just enchants me. The writing, the art, the pacing...I'm enamored even my second time through, and I'm a little amazed that others aren't sharing that experience.
Still waiting for the misogyny to drop (we're already getting hints of it), but (as I explained to Amber) Sim writes some truly captivating and sympathetic women, while nearly all of his men (including Cerebus) are selfish morons up through the end, so how's that going to work?
Anyway, now Amber wants to read the series 😂
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Sept 22, 2021 5:56:47 GMT -5
Inching through Reads in the brief amounts of free time I get to myself lately. I'm still in the first half, where the focus is on Victor Reid and not Victor Davis. I was trying to explain the volume to Amber today and pretty much said this: Okay, so there are two totally unrelated plots running side by side. In one, the religious leaders of every major warring faction in the region are meeting to determine how to settle their feud. In the other, a writer carelessly spends his advance on a book without reading the fine print. Neither of those sound even remotely interesting, and yet I am absolutely riveted. Sim's style just enchants me. The writing, the art, the pacing...I'm enamored even my second time through, and I'm a little amazed that others aren't sharing that experience. Still waiting for the misogyny to drop (we're already getting hints of it), but (as I explained to Amber) Sim writes some truly captivating and sympathetic women, while nearly all of his men (including Cerebus) are selfish morons up through the end, so how's that going to work? Anyway, now Amber wants to read the series 😂 If you ask me, the misogyny in Cerebus was retroactively engineered by people who were angered by Sim's opinions as expounded in the comics' editorial pages. I never felt that Sim treated women in the comic itself as anything less than full-fledged individuals, with all the virtues, faults, strength and weakness typical of any given human being.
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,451
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Post by shaxper on Sept 22, 2021 9:31:36 GMT -5
If you ask me, the misogyny in Cerebus was retroactively engineered by people who were angered by Sim's opinions as expounded in the comics' editorial pages. I never felt that Sim treated women in the comic itself as anything less than full-fledged individuals, with all the virtues, faults, strength and weakness typical of any given human being. If memory serves, Sim pretty much brings this upon himself in the second half, with Victor Davis certainly inviting us to confuse him with Sim himself and then discussing how feminism ruined society and that women secretly perform symbolic castration on men's brains. Of course, it's been a decade, so my impressions might be different my second time through.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Sept 22, 2021 9:50:03 GMT -5
If you ask me, the misogyny in Cerebus was retroactively engineered by people who were angered by Sim's opinions as expounded in the comics' editorial pages. I never felt that Sim treated women in the comic itself as anything less than full-fledged individuals, with all the virtues, faults, strength and weakness typical of any given human being. If memory serves, Sim pretty much brings this upon himself in the second half, with Victor Davis certainly inviting us to confuse him with Sim himself and then discussing how feminism ruined society and that women secretly perform symbolic castration on men's brains. Of course, it's been a decade, so my impressions might be different my second time through. Well, I don't think anyone could have seen Victor Davis's fate being anything else but the result of his own lack of discipline. After reading those long pages, the message I took home was not "women are bad" but "creators who accept to trade their vision for material comforts will find themselves shackled by those very comforts, and subjected to the will of whoever is in measure to provide them". It was certainly influential in my decision to never sell my rights to anything I create, something I did once as a kid and still regret! It's all very Faustian. Gave artists a taste of honey, and they'll have to do whatever you want to get more.
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Post by mikelmidnight on Sept 22, 2021 11:29:20 GMT -5
shaxper:
If Amber can get through the clichés in the first book, I suspect she'll enjoy everything at least up through Jaka's Story and possibly Melmoth. Some of Mothers & Daughters she'll enjoy, some will wtf? her. After that, who knows!
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Post by Hoosier X on Sept 22, 2021 12:45:15 GMT -5
If you ask me, the misogyny in Cerebus was retroactively engineered by people who were angered by Sim's opinions as expounded in the comics' editorial pages. I never felt that Sim treated women in the comic itself as anything less than full-fledged individuals, with all the virtues, faults, strength and weakness typical of any given human being. If memory serves, Sim pretty much brings this upon himself in the second half, with Victor Davis certainly inviting us to confuse him with Sim himself and then discussing how feminism ruined society and that women secretly perform symbolic castration on men's brains. Of course, it's been a decade, so my impressions might be different my second time through. Your memory serves you well.
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Post by String on Sept 22, 2021 13:51:26 GMT -5
Inching through Reads in the brief amounts of free time I get to myself lately. I'm still in the first half, where the focus is on Victor Reid and not Victor Davis. I was trying to explain the volume to Amber today and pretty much said this: Okay, so there are two totally unrelated plots running side by side. In one, the religious leaders of every major warring faction in the region are meeting to determine how to settle their feud. In the other, a writer carelessly spends his advance on a book without reading the fine print. Neither of those sound even remotely interesting, and yet I am absolutely riveted. Sim's style just enchants me. The writing, the art, the pacing...I'm enamored even my second time through, and I'm a little amazed that others aren't sharing that experience. Still waiting for the misogyny to drop (we're already getting hints of it), but (as I explained to Amber) Sim writes some truly captivating and sympathetic women, while nearly all of his men (including Cerebus) are selfish morons up through the end, so how's that going to work? Anyway, now Amber wants to read the series 😂 If you ask me, the misogyny in Cerebus was retroactively engineered by people who were angered by Sim's opinions as expounded in the comics' editorial pages. I never felt that Sim treated women in the comic itself as anything less than full-fledged individuals, with all the virtues, faults, strength and weakness typical of any given human being. So far, I haven't seen any signs of that as well although admittedly, I am not as far along into the saga as some of you so I have to wait and see on this as I progress in my reading. Still, his female characters have been strong and independent (certainly Astoria) and their struggles and failures have been defined and confined by the perceptions of their roles within a male-dominated society. I just finished Jaka's Story. The fate of Pud was indeed sad as was the arrest of the others. Jaka's conversation (interrogation?) with Mrs. Thatcher was quite revealing. I felt that Jaka lacked the proper words to describe how she viewed her performance and attire as necessary to her Art while Mrs. Thatcher only wanted to highlight the negative consequences of such an act by her reading of Pud's dairy which only served to back up the very thoughts and inner dialogue we've been reading by him this whole time. Both appear to have valid points yet what I got from this was the question of when and how does society's need for conformity quell an individual's right for creative expression? Under Cirin's law, Jaka's Art creates an unwanted effect that could possibly lead to further acts of violence. Oscar is shocked to learn that he needs a permit to write at all let alone publish his writing. In essence, Pud's fate was brought about by the very reasoning laid out by Mrs. Thatcher to Jaka which is why she inevitably signed those papers of confession. Is Jaka's dancing, her very Art, now sullied, criminal in it's actions and meaning? Society at the moment would say yes. A very interesting example of this dichotomy of society need vs individual expression. It's been some time since I read this so I had totally forgotten about the ending here. Another shocking revelation of Jaka's actions. I'm not quite sure of her reasoning for doing so, either because of her doubts over Rick or her concerns over Cerebus, maybe both, maybe not. Lastly, the prose narrative portions are the work of Oscar, yes? So, does that mean we the readers are supposed to take these sections at face value, as the 'Truth' or with a grain of salt, embellished as it were by the Art of Oscar? Onward to Melmoth.
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,451
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Post by shaxper on Sept 22, 2021 17:14:12 GMT -5
shaxper: If Amber can get through the clichés in the first book, I suspect she'll enjoy everything at least up through Jaka's Story and possibly Melmoth. Some of Mothers & Daughters she'll enjoy, some will wtf? her. After that, who knows! I actually think Jaka's Story could end up being her favorite volume.
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Post by mikelmidnight on Sept 24, 2021 11:39:04 GMT -5
Lastly, the prose narrative portions are the work of Oscar, yes? So, does that mean we the readers are supposed to take these sections at face value, as the 'Truth' or with a grain of salt, embellished as it were by the Art of Oscar?
Sim deliberately obfuscates the issue. I'd consider the core facts basically accurate (given that no later narratives contradict them in a substantial way, if I recall?), but the details are the results of Oscar's imagination.
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Post by mikelmidnight on Sept 24, 2021 11:41:17 GMT -5
shaxper: If Amber can get through the clichés in the first book, I suspect she'll enjoy everything at least up through Jaka's Story and possibly Melmoth. Some of Mothers & Daughters she'll enjoy, some will wtf? her. After that, who knows! I actually think Jaka's Story could end up being her favorite volume.
I wonder what she'll think of M&D. Some of the anti-womanist turn is evident here (even in details of the story, leaving aside the text pieces), and yet … it is totally Astoria's turn to shine.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Sept 24, 2021 13:10:13 GMT -5
I actually think Jaka's Story could end up being her favorite volume.
I wonder what she'll think of M&D. Some of the anti-womanist turn is evident here (even in details of the story, leaving aside the text pieces), and yet … it is totally Astoria's turn to shine.
I'm genuinely interested in hearing more about any anti-womanist turn in Mothers and Daughters, Mikel! I agree with you: I thought that the scene in which Astoria realizes that her dream of political power is vain secured her place as the most mature character in the entire series! There are very few people like that who are ready to accept that they've let their ambitions take them to a place they don't want to be, and are ready to turn away. Especially in such a serene way. No male character in Cerebus came close to that, not even Po.
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Post by Hoosier X on Sept 24, 2021 20:30:37 GMT -5
I’m done! I read Cerebus 298, 299 and 300 this afternoon.
Shep Shep’s big revelation is indeed pretty creepy. I guess he finally got his wish and made a few guest appearances in early 1960s Kirby stories.
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Post by mikelmidnight on Sept 27, 2021 12:00:39 GMT -5
I'm genuinely interested in hearing more about any anti-womanist turn in Mothers and Daughters, Mikel!
I apologise basing this on vague impressions but my issues are buried, and I'm probably combining the storyline itself with the text stories in my mind … but I remember a lot of recharacterisation of the Cirinists to make them … sort of universally repulsive, rather than simply being an opposing military and philosophical force … and also a lot of comments denigrating what one might think of as 'feminist issues' but done in a way that seems … supported by the narrative?
I know Sim usually portrays men as hapless clowns, too, so maybe I'm being overly sensitive here?
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Post by String on Oct 12, 2021 11:59:41 GMT -5
Melmoth was a quick read, far different from what I recall of reading it before years ago. Also, very much straight forward, no hidden or veiled allegories or themes that I could see.
I liked the vignettes/appearances of various cast characters that wander by Dino's Cafe. Dino was fun but how old is his waitress Doris supposed to be? She's looks rather young but acts slightly more mature. Also, I liked how Sims framed the flashback of Bear telling Cerebus of the perils of engaging in combat with Cirinists by having Cerebus look more like his early appearances with an elongated snout and extended ears, nicely done.
The Oscar portions weren't as big of a drag as I recall. I guess my first time reading this, I was perplexed over why this semi-bio of him was included alongside the main story.The footnotes Sims provided in the back section of the trade helped clarify some of his choices and decisions in what to keep/exclude from detailing his death.
Although I'm curious now. If this Oscar is meant to be some parody/caricature of the real Wilde, then should I take it that includes his *ahem* apparent personal preferences? If so, would that mean Oscar possibly fancied Rick previously, at the same time that Pud was fantasizing about Jaka? That would be an unusual but interesting dynamic.
On to Flight then.
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Post by tonebone on Oct 12, 2021 13:05:38 GMT -5
Inching through Reads in the brief amounts of free time I get to myself lately. I'm still in the first half, where the focus is on Victor Reid and not Victor Davis. I was trying to explain the volume to Amber today and pretty much said this: Okay, so there are two totally unrelated plots running side by side. In one, the religious leaders of every major warring faction in the region are meeting to determine how to settle their feud. In the other, a writer carelessly spends his advance on a book without reading the fine print. Neither of those sound even remotely interesting, and yet I am absolutely riveted. Sim's style just enchants me. The writing, the art, the pacing...I'm enamored even my second time through, and I'm a little amazed that others aren't sharing that experience. Still waiting for the misogyny to drop (we're already getting hints of it), but (as I explained to Amber) Sim writes some truly captivating and sympathetic women, while nearly all of his men (including Cerebus) are selfish morons up through the end, so how's that going to work? Anyway, now Amber wants to read the series 😂 If you ask me, the misogyny in Cerebus was retroactively engineered by people who were angered by Sim's opinions as expounded in the comics' editorial pages. I never felt that Sim treated women in the comic itself as anything less than full-fledged individuals, with all the virtues, faults, strength and weakness typical of any given human being. Agree. If you want to get a big dose of misogyny, just ask a guy who just got divorced what he thinks about women. ANY guy. That's where that editorial came from, and I think it stayed on the editorial page, for the most part.
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