|
Post by Roquefort Raider on Sept 20, 2023 15:15:21 GMT -5
I watched The Phantom Menace earlier this week. The last time had been... oh boy, longer ago than I can remember. I know we did watch our VHS tape a lot back when we lived in the US with the kids, but I'm not sure I saw it since then. I mostly remember the first time I saw it, and that my reaction had been a mix of exhilaration (due to that double-bladed light sabre and Ray Park's choreography) and relative disappointment (as it didn't come near generating the excitement of the first trilogy).
Much to my surprise, yesterday I found the film quite okay! For a kid-oriented action film, that is.
Sure it has flaws; especially as part of a series. However, nonsensical ideas like Anakin meeting R2-D2 or having built C-3PO don't strike viewers as odd if this is stand-alone film. Midichlorians are a stupid idea in the greater Star Wars universe, but in this film they work. The Jedi council acting like a bunch of jerks is disappointing to a Star Wars fan, but in the context of this story it also works. Palpatine being the main bad guy is obvious to fans, but a 10-years old might not even notice that the villain and the senator have the same chin.
I'll grant that Jar-Jar is insufferable; all the scenes where he's acting dumb or stepping in poo could be removed. But even so, he and the Gungans turn out to be brave and loyal people, ready to sacrifice themselves for a greater good. Qui-Gon is an engaging father figure, and we can root for little Anakin and his heart of gold, for all that the child actors in this movie can't act their way out of a paper bag. We have main characters we find sympathetic, characters we can root for. Their triumphs, either at the end of a pod race or when they vanquish an invading army, make us viewers feel happy.
Ultimately, it is a story of a few good people facing a lot of bad people and managing to win, David vs Goliath-like. That the daring escapes, last-second rescues and now-they-work-now-they-don't shields of the bad guys don't make a lot of sense is neither here nor there; this isn't 2001: a space odyssey; it's a Saturday morning cartoon with a bigger budget.
Good soundtrack, too.
|
|
|
Post by driver1980 on Sept 23, 2023 9:48:49 GMT -5
Wow:
|
|
|
Post by Roquefort Raider on Sept 27, 2023 9:24:06 GMT -5
Am I the only one that stayed up and watches Ashoka last night? I like it overall... I didn't love the way Sabine was portrayed.. she seemed like a spoiled brat teenager, not a 30-something year old leader and war veteran (which is what she should be), and I don't remember her being a tech person outside of weapons. Having watched none of the animated shows, I personally had no expectation regarding any of the characters in Ahsoka. Nevertheless, after watching the first episode, I thought that the character of Sabine was absolutely terrible. From the second she shows up on screen, she's a walking cliché: very beautiful (of course!) rebel with an attitude, dismissive of other people's expectations, thinking the rules don't apply to someone as cool and edgy as her, and totally unreliable. In short order, we see her leave friends in the lurch because she can't be bothered to show up to an event she agreed to attend, steal an important McGuffin just to piss off her ex-teacher, manage to let it fall into the hands of the bad guys -but not before making sure that THEY will be able to use it, unlike the good guys. Goodness, she might be on the Empire's payroll, for all that she contributes! It didn't help that the other characters were fine with her bratty attitude. As you point out, they all seem to be making excuses as if she was a whiny 14 years old in need of emotional support instead of a veteran. Big contrast with the general played by Mary Elizabeth Winston (Mrs. Kenobi!), who had just a few lines but was somehow instantly likeable. Or with Ahsoka herself, who despite being as much of a Mary Sue as Rey ever was is still pretty cool. Plus, Rosario Dawson is awesome. Not knowing what's coming, I just want a good story; however, I thought the plot was very similar to the first hour of The Rise of Skywalker: there's a special map leading to the Bad Guys that we have to find by going on an adventure, but once it's in our hands we can't read it unless we go through another set of trials...and the Empire chases after it too. (Come to think of it, that was also the plot of The Force Awakens, even though that map led to Luke Skywalker). It almost makes me wonder whether the script was written by an AI trained by watching older Star Wars movies! The tension between Ahsoka and Sabine offers some potential for character development, and I hope that it won't just result in some bickering followed by a grudging show of mutual respect. Are we supposed to know why Sabine was the person to go to to decipher the map? Nobody explained why she was supposed to be better at it than anyone else... and in fact, all she did was make a couple of Rubik cube moves on the map until it showed the floral symbol of Ontario. Couldn't a computer have done it in no time flat? Anyhoo... Barely a C for that first episode, but I may just not be the target audience. I much preferred The Mandalorian and Andor.
|
|
|
Post by wildfire2099 on Sept 27, 2023 13:40:42 GMT -5
Sabine is very off.. no, there's not reason other than plot that she's the one they go to for the map, and I hate her character. Ezra isn't quite right etiher, but the guys been stranded without other humans for several years, so he should be a bit not quite right.
I think Thrawn is good...I agree it's a bit odd he has a pot belly, but the characterization is good so far. They don't have a huge amount of time to go deep into his character, so I think they are just letting him be since most fans know him. His reliance on the night mothers is a bit odd, but he has to use what he has, I suppose.
The one thing I didn't like.. why didn't he already know Ashoka? He should have, I feel like, but maybe with this new timeline he didn't?
|
|
|
Post by thwhtguardian on Sept 29, 2023 15:13:32 GMT -5
Sabine is very off.. no, there's not reason other than plot that she's the one they go to for the map, and I hate her character. Ezra isn't quite right etiher, but the guys been stranded without other humans for several years, so he should be a bit not quite right. I think Thrawn is good...I agree it's a bit odd he has a pot belly, but the characterization is good so far. They don't have a huge amount of time to go deep into his character, so I think they are just letting him be since most fans know him. His reliance on the night mothers is a bit odd, but he has to use what he has, I suppose. The one thing I didn't like.. why didn't he already know Ashoka? He should have, I feel like, but maybe with this new timeline he didn't? He worked with Anakin(both as a jedi and then as Vader) but he never directly encountered Ashoka. Depending on how deep Imperial intelligence went he may have heard that the Rebel cell he battled on Lothal was supported by a deep cover operative named Fulcrum but he wouldn't have known that was Ashoka as not even the Rebels knew that right away. As for the map, Sabine previously decoded the ancient Jedi glyphs that operated the portal to space/time based on her knowledge of art history so it made sense here. Otherwise, Sabine definitely felt much younger than she should have but I feel like it's improved a bit since the start.
|
|
|
Post by Roquefort Raider on Sept 29, 2023 16:33:30 GMT -5
Sabine is very off.. no, there's not reason other than plot that she's the one they go to for the map, and I hate her character. Ezra isn't quite right etiher, but the guys been stranded without other humans for several years, so he should be a bit not quite right. I think Thrawn is good...I agree it's a bit odd he has a pot belly, but the characterization is good so far. They don't have a huge amount of time to go deep into his character, so I think they are just letting him be since most fans know him. His reliance on the night mothers is a bit odd, but he has to use what he has, I suppose. The one thing I didn't like.. why didn't he already know Ashoka? He should have, I feel like, but maybe with this new timeline he didn't? He worked with Anakin(both as a jedi and then as Vader) but he never directly encountered Ashoka. Depending on how deep Imperial intelligence went he may have heard that the Rebel cell he battled on Lothal was supported by a deep cover operative named Fulcrum but he wouldn't have known that was Ashoka as not even the Rebels knew that right away. As for the map, Sabine previously decoded the ancient Jedi glyphs that operated the portal to space/time based on her knowledge of art history so it made sense here. Otherwise, Sabine definitely felt much younger than she should have but I feel like it's improved a bit since the start. I'm now at the start of the fourth episode, and I agree. Things got much better when she started acting like an adult. I like the villains; that scary lady would have been a MUCH better antagonist for the third trilogy than Snoke or Palpazombie were. Ray Stevenson has a lot of presence, and I'm curious to know what his back story is. (His apprentice not so much, but she's still pretty much a blank slate). The writers could have avoided a few silly scenes, but I guess a cool sequence trumps sensible action anytime. I mean, standing on the hull of your disabled ship and waving lightsabres at incoming fighters is a pretty dumb thing to do... unless they are dumb enough to get within range instead of blowing your ship to pieces from a safe distance. My favourite thing up to now, I think, is something we saw in Andor as well: how the New Republic is turning into a mess of incompetence. Combine that with their mind-wiping program, and I can see why many ordinary citizens (like the factory workers here) might not feel particularly loyal to it. I had wondered why, in The Force Awakens, Leia had joined an independent resistance movement to the First Order instead of working with the New Republic's armed forces; we seem to get the first glimpse of an answer here.
|
|
|
Post by thwhtguardian on Sept 29, 2023 16:50:46 GMT -5
He worked with Anakin(both as a jedi and then as Vader) but he never directly encountered Ashoka. Depending on how deep Imperial intelligence went he may have heard that the Rebel cell he battled on Lothal was supported by a deep cover operative named Fulcrum but he wouldn't have known that was Ashoka as not even the Rebels knew that right away. As for the map, Sabine previously decoded the ancient Jedi glyphs that operated the portal to space/time based on her knowledge of art history so it made sense here. Otherwise, Sabine definitely felt much younger than she should have but I feel like it's improved a bit since the start. I'm now at the start of the fourth episode, and I agree. Things got much better when she started acting like an adult. I like the villains; that scary lady would have been a MUCH better antagonist for the third trilogy than Snoke or Palpazombie were. Ray Stevenson has a lot of presence, and I'm curious to know what his back story is. (His apprentice not so much, but she's still pretty much a blank slate). The writers could have avoided a few silly scenes, but I guess a cool sequence trumps sensible action anytime. I mean, standing on the hull of your disabled ship and waving lightsabres at incoming fighters is a pretty dumb thing to do... unless they are dumb enough to get within range instead of blowing your ship to pieces from a safe distance. My favourite thing up to now, I think, is something we saw in Andor as well: how the New Republic is turning into a mess of incompetence. Combine that with their mind-wiping program, and I can see why many ordinary citizens (like the factory workers here) might not feel particularly loyal to it. I had wondered why, in The Force Awakens, Leia had joined an independent resistance movement to the First Order instead of working with the New Republic's armed forces; we seem to get the first glimpse of an answer here. Yeah, the rot in the New Republic is pretty interesting and was something that I think got skipped over in the sequels but is getting better developed here and it brings new depth to both the prequels and even the OT. You see in the prequels that the Republic that the Rebels were fighting so hard to restore in the OT was rotten to the core. The Senate was so corrupt and full of people fueled by jealousy and lust for power that a Sith lord sitting in their midst was completely covered up. So with that in mind you it makes sense that the Rebellion's New Republic was always doomed to fail as restoring the Republic is just continuing on a broken system. Basically, in the end Count Dooku was right. You have to burn it all down and start over with something completely new.
|
|
|
Post by berkley on Sept 29, 2023 21:53:06 GMT -5
I watched The Phantom Menace earlier this week. The last time had been... oh boy, longer ago than I can remember. I know we did watch our VHS tape a lot back when we lived in the US with the kids, but I'm not sure I saw it since then. I mostly remember the first time I saw it, and that my reaction had been a mix of exhilaration (due to that double-bladed light sabre and Ray Park's choreography) and relative disappointment (as it didn't come near generating the excitement of the first trilogy). Much to my surprise, yesterday I found the film quite okay! For a kid-oriented action film, that is. Sure it has flaws; especially as part of a series. However, nonsensical ideas like Anakin meeting R2-D2 or having built C-3PO don't strike viewers as odd if this is stand-alone film. Midichlorians are a stupid idea in the greater Star Wars universe, but in this film they work. The Jedi council acting like a bunch of jerks is disappointing to a Star Wars fan, but in the context of this story it also works. Palpatine being the main bad guy is obvious to fans, but a 10-years old might not even notice that the villain and the senator have the same chin. I'll grant that Jar-Jar is insufferable; all the scenes where he's acting dumb or stepping in poo could be removed. But even so, he and the Gungans turn out to be brave and loyal people, ready to sacrifice themselves for a greater good. Qui-Gon is an engaging father figure, and we can root for little Anakin and his heart of gold, for all that the child actors in this movie can't act their way out of a paper bag. We have main characters we find sympathetic, characters we can root for. Their triumphs, either at the end of a pod race or when they vanquish an invading army, make us viewers feel happy. Ultimately, it is a story of a few good people facing a lot of bad people and managing to win, David vs Goliath-like. That the daring escapes, last-second rescues and now-they-work-now-they-don't shields of the bad guys don't make a lot of sense is neither here nor there; this isn't 2001: a space odyssey; it's a Saturday morning cartoon with a bigger budget. Good soundtrack, too.
The three prequels are if nothing else visually stunning spectacles so they'll always have that going for them. From memory, the biggest weaknesses include the casting of Anakin, which could be a chemistry thing with me as a viewer, and the script, which is full of clunkers, lines that fall dead and kill the mood for me. Reportedly, Alec Guinness re-wrote some of his own dialogue in the original films - with Lucas's approval, since he recognised this was a weak point of his. I wonder if the prequels could have benefited from something like that, but then I imagine he probably did hire writers to help him so who knows.
|
|
|
Post by Roquefort Raider on Sept 30, 2023 14:53:17 GMT -5
*spoilers for the Ahsoka series*. Episodes 4 and 5 get an A, easily. After the disappointing start, this is a surprise. A welcome one, to be sure. {Spoiler} It was good to see Hayden Christensen again, and I liked his line "I heard that before". Nice tip of the hat to fans of the original trilogy!
We got more of the insufferable attitude of the New Republic: pompous, inefficient, only ready to stand up to those it views as weaker... they're as much of a bully as the empire ever was, but they hide it behind a cheerful facade. When Hera heard that her command might be revoked, I fully expected her to answer with "I've been a rebel before". (It wouldn't have been original, but damn! would it have been justified).
Was the armored dude with the double-bladed lightsabre from one of the animated series? His vanishing in a puff of smoke after being cut in half suggested he was more than just a droid or a Sith understudy, but we didn't get any background on him.
I don't know yet what Ray Stevenson's character is trying to achieve, when he speaks of a greater good. Does he have the same motivation as Count Dooku, cleaning up the mess of both Empire and New Republic? It would be nice to have villains who aren't just out to cause trouble for selfish or fanatical reasons but have a worthwhile objective. Hopefully the following episodes will stay the course.
|
|
|
Post by Dizzy D on Sept 30, 2023 17:08:17 GMT -5
I watched The Phantom Menace earlier this week. The last time had been... oh boy, longer ago than I can remember. I know we did watch our VHS tape a lot back when we lived in the US with the kids, but I'm not sure I saw it since then. I mostly remember the first time I saw it, and that my reaction had been a mix of exhilaration (due to that double-bladed light sabre and Ray Park's choreography) and relative disappointment (as it didn't come near generating the excitement of the first trilogy). Much to my surprise, yesterday I found the film quite okay! For a kid-oriented action film, that is. Sure it has flaws; especially as part of a series. However, nonsensical ideas like Anakin meeting R2-D2 or having built C-3PO don't strike viewers as odd if this is stand-alone film. Midichlorians are a stupid idea in the greater Star Wars universe, but in this film they work. The Jedi council acting like a bunch of jerks is disappointing to a Star Wars fan, but in the context of this story it also works. Palpatine being the main bad guy is obvious to fans, but a 10-years old might not even notice that the villain and the senator have the same chin. I'll grant that Jar-Jar is insufferable; all the scenes where he's acting dumb or stepping in poo could be removed. But even so, he and the Gungans turn out to be brave and loyal people, ready to sacrifice themselves for a greater good. Qui-Gon is an engaging father figure, and we can root for little Anakin and his heart of gold, for all that the child actors in this movie can't act their way out of a paper bag. We have main characters we find sympathetic, characters we can root for. Their triumphs, either at the end of a pod race or when they vanquish an invading army, make us viewers feel happy. Ultimately, it is a story of a few good people facing a lot of bad people and managing to win, David vs Goliath-like. That the daring escapes, last-second rescues and now-they-work-now-they-don't shields of the bad guys don't make a lot of sense is neither here nor there; this isn't 2001: a space odyssey; it's a Saturday morning cartoon with a bigger budget. Good soundtrack, too.
The three prequels are if nothing else visually stunning spectacles so they'll always have that going for them. From memory, the biggest weaknesses include the casting of Anakin, which could be a chemistry thing with me as a viewer, and the script, which is full of clunkers, lines that fall dead and kill the mood for me. Reportedly, Alec Guinness re-wrote some of his own dialogue in the original films - with Lucas's approval, since he recognised this was a weak point of his. I wonder if the prequels could have benefited from something like that, but then I imagine he probably did hire writers to help him so who knows.
Not just Alec Guinness, Harrison Ford was rewriting his own dialogue as well (The famous 'George! You can type this s***, but you sure can't say it!' quote) and Carrie Fisher rewrote her own dialogue for Return of the Jedi (resulting in her having had quite a career as a script doctor for various movies). Fisher reportedly did some script doctoring on the prequel movies, but it's unknown what exactly.
I think Star Wars killed Hayden Christensen's career (and he probably is not a bad actor, as he received numerous awards for Shattered Glass which came out around the same time as the Star Wars prequels).
I think the script is the weakest part for the prequels for the most part for various reasons: - The basic plot and the stakes: By comparison Star Wars the basic plot is simple, but it's clear for the viewer at all time what the stakes are. We have an evil Empire, we see Vader and his soldiers attack and kill various rebels at the start and we see the Death Star blow up a planet. In The Phantom Menace, we deal with a trade embargo (this is supposed to be a kid's movie), but we never see what the actual impact of the embargo is. The Trade Federation are a group of caricatures that blindly follow the orders of the Sith. The Jedi are their as arbitrators, but are immediately drawn into the conflict for really no reason. Etc.
(Bit of script doctoring of my own: If we're going to have the trade federation and the embargo as plot, I'd have Maul assassinate the representative of the Federation, so the Federation would have reason to turn on the Jedi (not many people carrying lightsabres around) and also it would give Maul something to do in the first part of the movie, instead of just standing around and looking threatening.)
- The characters themselves: In the first movies we have various characters from various backgrounds: a young farmer, a high-born politician and a criminal form our main trio. In the prequels, most of our cast are ancient warrior monks whose motivations and background are far removed from the viewers (Ewan McGregor and Liam Neeson manage to put some humanity into them, but that is mostly in spite of the script.)
The second big problem is Lucas as a director:
Lucas gives his actors not much feedback on what he wants from them in a scene (something which has been stated by various actors in both the original movies and the prequels). In the original movies, he had his then-wife to assist and for the other two original movies, he wasn't the director. Also they had real sets so the actors had an environment to interact with. In the prequels, most of it is filmed against a green screen and many of the creatures and robots they need to interact with are CGI, so actors needed more input from the director who had the big overview, but weren't receiving it.
|
|
|
Post by thwhtguardian on Oct 1, 2023 7:50:30 GMT -5
*spoilers for the Ahsoka series*. Episodes 4 and 5 get an A, easily. After the disappointing start, this is a surprise. A welcome one, to be sure. {Spoiler} It was good to see Hayden Christensen again, and I liked his line "I heard that before". Nice tip of the hat to fans of the original trilogy!
We got more of the insufferable attitude of the New Republic: pompous, inefficient, only ready to stand up to those it views as weaker... they're as much of a bully as the empire ever was, but they hide it behind a cheerful facade. When Hera heard that her command might be revoked, I fully expected her to answer with "I've been a rebel before". (It wouldn't have been original, but damn! would it have been justified).
Was the armored dude with the double-bladed lightsabre from one of the animated series? His vanishing in a puff of smoke after being cut in half suggested he was more than just a droid or a Sith understudy, but we didn't get any background on him.
I don't know yet what Ray Stevenson's character is trying to achieve, when he speaks of a greater good. Does he have the same motivation as Count Dooku, cleaning up the mess of both Empire and New Republic? It would be nice to have villains who aren't just out to cause trouble for selfish or fanatical reasons but have a worthwhile objective. Hopefully the following episodes will stay the course. The Night Sisters can resurrect the dead, so he vanished when he was killed again because the magic dissipated. They probably should have thrown in a short line about that for people who didn't watch the Clone Wars, even something like, " The Night Sister's magic is tougher than I remembered." would have given new viewers a little context. And Ray Stevenson is definitely one of my favorite parts...but with his untimely death I wonder how they'll continue his story?
|
|
|
Post by Jesse on Oct 4, 2023 21:59:32 GMT -5
Zombie Stormtroopers! 🤘🖤
|
|
|
Post by Jesse on Oct 5, 2023 10:28:35 GMT -5
Was that the season finale?
Did they film anymore of Ray Stevenson before he passed away?
I'm assuming there's some kind of Sith artifact or some other McGuffin that his character was looking for on that planet they're stuck on.
|
|
|
Post by thwhtguardian on Oct 6, 2023 11:36:15 GMT -5
Was that the season finale? Did they film anymore of Ray Stevenson before he passed away? I'm assuming there's some kind of Sith artifact or some other McGuffin that his character was looking for on that planet they're stuck on. It doesn't look like it will be a sith artifact, the statue he was standing of was a statue of Mortis who was a sort of god of the Force who kept balance between the dark and the light who were embodied by his children so it seems Baylan is looking to bring balance. Stevenson will definitely be hard to recast but it seems impossible not to given how important his plot seemed.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2023 7:38:15 GMT -5
Finally made it to the episode 8 season finale of Ahsoka. To me the show has so many elements that could be so cool, but a real mixed bag overall. In this last episode...13 minutes of mostly dialogue at the beginning (and nothing really substantial at that). This "slow burn" stuff has got to end, it's not Star Wars. Now about 20 minutes in, they remember how to do it right, some great action. The Nightsisters are great in particular, love their role in this series. I SO wish they could have figured out how to write Asajj Ventress back into this somehow (obviously much older at this point, and, well, alive of course!). I'll say again, Rosario is great as Ahsoka, that's a big plus for me. Thrawn is flat out wrong though. Not only is he not cast right, but nothing that made him special in the EU is present. He should be doing his crazy studing art, making astounding tactical and strategic decisions with a real command crew around him (why aren't they using Pellaeon when they already teased his appearance before?). Here he's just doing that "measured calm voice" leader thing, which is "ok", but not the classic Thrawn that made him one of the most capable adversaries in all of Star Wars history. I think the other challenge is the miss on Sabine. Rebels was never as good as Clone Wars, but it did get better over time and had some good development. Sabine was a neat character at the start (she was my favorite), but then really came into her own by the end of Rebels. It's like the stuff that made Rebels actually good they threw away, and then decided to do some generic Jedi thing. The attempted relationship between Ahsoka and Sabine they've tried to create in this series I just can't get vested in, feels like "Disney by the numbers" storytelling. On the flip side, Ray Stevenson OWNED the Baylan Skoll role, it is so tragic we have lost him. He certainly delivered a great final performance with his work here. Not a fan of his apprentice though, I think Shin Hati as portayed here just isn't strong enough a performance. Plus really bad hair In fairness, I think both the scripting and directing have a lot of issues as well. So much flat dialogue, someone was really enamored of that approach with this series (again, I think it's this modern infatuation with "slow burn", thinking it somehow makes it more intense). I can cherry-pick plenty of good moments throughout the series and see why a lot of folks here like this, but overall I don't enjoy the flow of the series as much as I had hoped for. It's like, just make it fun. It's not rocket science. I don't need all this "pseudo-emotional" modern approach baggage weighing it down. Old school Star Wars had a lot more humor, and a lot more epic action. Clone Wars somehow brought that back nicely as well. Heck, Mando nailed it too in a big way. The Star Wars bar may be high as such, but I think Ahsoka could reach a fair amount higher.
|
|