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Post by spoon on Jun 13, 2017 19:46:24 GMT -5
X-Men #28 'Wail of the Banshee' Thomas/Roth/Ayers -- The team dynamic with Mimic in the mix is interesting... they didn't change his personality at all to make him a good guy... he's still an attention hound, and thinks he's better than everyone else, he's just helping the X-Men because Xavier talked him into it. Much better than when they do 'face turns' today. -- Cyclops is clearly not really able to not be the leader, even if one didn't know what's happening next, it's obvious have Mimic as the leader won't last long. -- Angel is stil injured (he's in a sling).. he and Bobby were pretty much just wallpaper in this one. -- More fun with Jean and Ted, and no mooning of Scott... interesting. -- With all the tricks and defense set up to defeat the Banshee this issue, you get much more a feeling that the academy is exactly that, rather than just a army training camp that is usually seems to be. While it was all pretty generic, I think it worked better that way than having lots of made up 'science' -- Speaking of made up science, wow, was Banshee ridiculously overpowered at first! Not only can his scream make him fly fast enough so people can't see him (which is quite a bit faster than the speed of sound), he can knock people out and wipe their memories, besides vibrating things to pieces. They have to do the tried and true 'I've used to much power' to give the X-Men a chance. -- No mention of Banshee's real name here, or really of his later background.. no funny accent or anything. In fact, he sorta sounds like Beast in alot of cases, using big words and such. Also, he's really, really ugly.. almost like he's part Lion or something. I assume that's by design, since Roth draws other people just fine. -- I never would have guessed that the Ogre didn't appear again until Busiek brought him back in Thunderbolts... he seemed like he was going to be somebody! Too much like Iron Man, I guess. Too bad, because the X-Men are going to need non-mutant adversaries if Mimic is sticking around. -- There's also a secret door in the basement that we get to see that is locked... so the Professor's got somethin' secret going on. We also find out someone is still trying to take over Xavier's mind (he says it's not the Puppetmaster again) Huzzah for long term planning! I re-read my X-Men about 7 years ago (can it have been that long?) and I do remember enjoying these Mimic issues because I felt like he added an interesting dynamic into the team. Like you say, he doesn't really play nice with others, and he's even more of a jerk than Hawkeye was, because Hawkeye was really only a jerk to Cap. I though Banshee looked like a monkey, and I agree that he seems to be made intentionally ugly. Hey, everybody can't be good looking, even in comics. And yes, his sonic powers (just like Tyroc in the Legion of Super-Heroes) are very nebulous and ill defined, almost like magic. To me, the way Banshee is depicted recalls old racist caricatures of Irish people as apes, so it's pretty embarassing that was still being done.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jun 13, 2017 20:58:38 GMT -5
To me, the way Banshee is depicted recalls old racist caricatures of Irish people as apes, so it's pretty embarassing that was still being done. I had no idea that was a thing. I've certainly seen the bad caricatures of Japanese. Germans, and Africans, but I'd never seen anything like that before. Mostly, if one is going to make fun of the Irish, it's usually for drunkeness. Was that a Golden Age thing? Or before?
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Post by Cei-U! on Jun 13, 2017 23:00:12 GMT -5
To me, the way Banshee is depicted recalls old racist caricatures of Irish people as apes, so it's pretty embarassing that was still being done. I had no idea that was a thing. I've certainly seen the bad caricatures of Japanese. Germans, and Africans, but I'd never seen anything like that before. Mostly, if one is going to make fun of the Irish, it's usually for drunkeness. Was that a Golden Age thing? Or before? Vicious caricatures of the Irish like those spoon is referencing--and yes, Werner Roth's Banshee is a slightly sanitized version of the look, as was the original design of cereal mascot Lucky the Leprecaun--date back to before the Civil War. You can see examples here. Cei-U! I summon me Lucky Charms!
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Post by MDG on Jun 14, 2017 5:44:03 GMT -5
I had no idea that was a thing. I've certainly seen the bad caricatures of Japanese. Germans, and Africans, but I'd never seen anything like that before. Mostly, if one is going to make fun of the Irish, it's usually for drunkeness. Was that a Golden Age thing? Or before? Vicious caricatures of the Irish like those spoon is referencing--and yes, Werner Roth's Banshee is a slightly sanitized version of the look, as was the original design of cereal mascot Lucky the Leprecaun--date back to before the Civil War. You can see examples here. Cei-U! I summon me Lucky Charms! That struck me as I read the Captain America issues with the Banshee (as covered in the podcast). Banshee's appearance is almost shockingly caricatured. Cripes, you can project slides on his upper lip!
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jun 14, 2017 9:48:29 GMT -5
Wow, that's pretty nuts...thanks for the link!
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jun 15, 2017 7:49:33 GMT -5
I think the problem with Mimic is they made him too awesome... they should have either only let him have one power at a time (ala Ultra Boy) or shown how he wasn't as good with them as the real owners were. As it was, there was no way he could stay for long witout making the rest of the team into useless batteries, really. Not sure that this was done with Mimic in mind, per se, but that's pretty much what Claremont did with Rogue a decade and a half later.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jun 15, 2017 7:53:53 GMT -5
Rogue also had the her baseline powers, and the emotional issues, but yeah, I can see that.. I didn't really think about it that way before.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jun 15, 2017 8:47:05 GMT -5
Fantastic Four #28 Lee/Kirby 'We Have to Fight the X-Men' Plot: the FF are just hanging out... Alicia has made a HUGE statue of Ben, much to his delight, and the others are reading about the X-Men in the paper. Meanwhile, the Mad Thinker convinces Puppetmaster to use his radioactive clay to brainwash Professor X... after a long mental battle, he succeeds, and orders the X-Men the attack the Fantastic Four and lure them into the desert. The X-Men visit the Baxter Building, and after a nice reception they ask the FF to help them investigate something.. when Reed refuses, they attack and take Sue hostage to get them to follow. Once there, they attack again, assisted by the Thinker's booby traps.. once the FF are subdued, the bad guys appear, and order Prof X to render his team unconscious. Beast resists just long enough to knock the puppet of the Professor away from Puppetmaster and stomp on it, allowing Xavier to free himself of the mind control. Meanwhile, Ben has escaped and freed his teammates, but then the Thinker's android appears.. after he gets the upper hand for a while, Professor X put the kibosh on it from afar and the good guys win, but the bad guys escape. Everyone makes friends and goes their separate ways, the end! Notes - It's not totally clear when this fits.. the newspaper mentions fights with the Brotherhood, the Blob, and Juggernaut, as well as the Space Phantom (maybe Stan was confused, or perhaps it's a purposeful mention to broaden the universe). Johnny mentions his team up with Iceman was 'months ago', but really should be more like a year or so.. it feels like Stan has pretty much ignored all the stories he didn't write, so I'd put this somewhere around X-Men 18 or 19. - Also, it's pretty weird Iceman is in his 'snowman' form early on, maybe Kirby just likes him that way. Edit: clearly, I was not realizing how far out of order I was reading this.. Cei-U straightens me out below! - It's a good thing for the good guys that Puppetmaster isn't usually that powerful.. taking control of Prof. X without knowing what he looks like was pretty crazy, especially considering he was the world's greatest telepath. It does make one wonder why Beast simply knocking it away saved the day. - I forget how much of an A-hole the Thing is in these early issues... he preens over a statue of himself, and threatens to spank Jean into submission.. ouch. - They had to have Sue pretty much not use her powers at all in order to have the X-Men win..it was particular weird looking with Cyclops around there were no force fields.
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Post by Cei-U! on Jun 15, 2017 9:06:33 GMT -5
Three quick notes:
1. The story in FF #28 (July '64) occurs between X-Men #5 (May '64) and 6 (July '64). That's why Iceman is still in his snowy form. He won't assume his standard look until X-Men #8 (November '64). Note, too, that in X-Men #6, Marvel Girl is wearing a mask instead of a full cowl, a look that debuted in FF #28. Also, Strange Tales #120 (May '64) did indeed occur just "months ago," not a year earlier.
2. Four Freedoms Plaza won't exist until late in the Byrne run. It's the good old Baxter Building here.
3. There's no reference to Juggernaut in this story. The opening scene mentions only the Brotherhood members, the Blob, and Space Phantom (accidentally substituted for Vanisher, Stan having confused X-Men #2 and Avengers #2).
Cei-U! I summon the mutant mania!
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jun 15, 2017 13:01:35 GMT -5
I could have sworn it said Juggernaut in that panel, but I see now you're correct. For some reason I was picturing this to be alot later then it was.. maybe because I didn't have it on hand and took a while to locate it. I was actually looking at some Byrne FF before I read this (ended up doing the Marvel Unlimited thing), so that's where I got that from. I'll go ahead and fix that
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Post by dbutler69 on Jun 15, 2017 13:30:31 GMT -5
Sue gets taken hostage again. Sigh.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jun 15, 2017 13:44:55 GMT -5
Sue gets taken hostage again. Sigh. Sue was used horribly for a very long time.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jun 15, 2017 15:56:46 GMT -5
Not to get too off topic, but yeah, that really annoys me. She's quite easily the most powerful member of the FF, and yet all they could think of for YEARS was that she was the girl? Very silly. It's been some time since I read it, but IIRC, Byrne did a good job make her more legit.
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Post by spoon on Jun 15, 2017 22:36:41 GMT -5
I think the problem with Mimic is they made him too awesome... they should have either only let him have one power at a time (ala Ultra Boy) or shown how he wasn't as good with them as the real owners were. As it was, there was no way he could stay for long witout making the rest of the team into useless batteries, really. Mimic's powers don't work well as a member of the team. However, I think that same power imbalance would've worked really well if played out in a long enough story arc with Mimic as an enemy from within.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jun 16, 2017 7:32:49 GMT -5
I think the problem with Mimic is they made him too awesome... they should have either only let him have one power at a time (ala Ultra Boy) or shown how he wasn't as good with them as the real owners were. As it was, there was no way he could stay for long witout making the rest of the team into useless batteries, really. Mimic's powers don't work well as a member of the team. However, I think that same power imbalance would've worked really well if played out in a long enough story arc with Mimic as an enemy from within. That would have been a better motivation for Mimic as a bad guy.. having someone group/agency sending him instead of just 'I'm the best'... they could totally retro that up
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