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Post by wildfire2099 on Mar 14, 2017 21:18:50 GMT -5
The Brian Daley novels were great! I don't really remember the details, but I definitely remember liking them alot. I think they need to find a nice happy medium... the more modern Star Wars comics often get too carried away tying things together, and I think these early ones tried too hard not to step on anything that could possibly be in a movie later... perhaps they were required to do so. Got all the way up to #15 today The Drexel Adventure 11-15 This felt more like the first real Star Wars adventure... the first one, while fun, between it's nature as a side story and the tribute, almost feels like it doesn't count. Here, we have the whole cast and a real mission (to find a new base) There was quite a bit that was forced.. like why do you need a great pilot to look for a planet.. it it hard? I'd think you'd want lots of good scientists and scanning equipment, not one hot shot fighter pilot and his droids. More importantly, if they thought he was in trouble, why would Leia go ALONE to find him? Why not bring a cruiser and some firepower? Or at least a crew? Besides the goofiness, it makes the Rebellion feel very small. As far as Leia not wanting to reveal the location of the Rebel base, I was assuming she was playing along so Jack didn't just kill her, or go to Yavin and not find any 'rebel treasure'.. but maybe they just weren't thinking about it, as Confessor suggests. I do like how the Jedi keep getting mentions as the great peacekeepers of the galaxy.. things were far from developed then, but yet they were right on target. I loved the giant ship/city but the dragon lords were kinda silly, I thought... seemed more Star Trek than anything. And we're supposed to believe that they collected space ships and turned them into hydrofoil boats? That seems a bit odd to me, especially since they were implying they were all the same and using parts. Plot-wise, it was interesting how they managed to get Han and Chewie on the opposite side, but it was definitely forced. With all the talking about how great Luke is, it seems pretty ridiculous that he would attack so viciously without listening to an explanation. The implication is either Chewey is more animal than man, or perhaps that the sonics were driving him nuts, too (which also leans that way). Then there's the fact that the Dragon Lords told Han they planned on claiming the Falcon for salvage, even as he was helping them, then suddenly they weren't. The action afterwards vs. Crimson Jack was far better. I loved how Han stole his charts.. I was wondering at the time why they didn't cause any trouble then.. turns out I wasn't disappointed Jolli's story was great.. I wouldn't have minded having her hang around for a while. Art-wise, I think I fall on the 'Infantino isn't a good fit for Star Wars' side... the ships especially feel off to me, though he does a good job on the main characters for the most part. I agree with Confessor there are some weird poses in some panels... almost like he doesn't want to repeat shots and gets carried away.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Mar 15, 2017 23:44:50 GMT -5
The fill ins....
Both were very good... I definitely liked 16 more than 17. I feel like that perhaps more time was supposed to have passed before the followup to the Abuda-3 story was published.. it seems like it's only be a couple weeks, and we see Don Juan in a med facility (one which he's been at for long enough for someone to track him down there.. Jaxxon and Amaizia seem established partners, and the Starkiller kid (LOVE that the bounty hunter thought he was Luke!) is like 6 inches taller and an expecting father.
The Looney Tunes references were fun, though I suspect they probably helped make sure that this is the last we see of the guy... I don't see George Lucas as a guy that appreciates such semi-parody/homages.
The flashback story was cool for what it was, but I'd rather see new ground broken than show a story that is semi-told.
Each issue had one thing that jumped out at me as a 'what the-?' moment. First, if Valance was able to track down Don Juan, how did he not know what planet he came from? And why not, you know, read the records, instead of trashing the records room? Would have been alot easier than torturing Jaxxon, that's for sure.
For the Luke-Biggs flashback, it was the frame... there's no way in hell at this point in the Star Wars story Han would have left Luke alone at the controls of the Falcon!
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Mar 16, 2017 6:30:23 GMT -5
Snow day today! Got out ye olde Star Wars epic collection, which I had sorta forgot I started Great to have you commenting on these issues, wildfire2099. Here are a few reposes to some of the points you make... Drove me nuts they got the squadron color wrong... is it so hard to have the right color?!? Pretty hard when you're basing your comic adaptation on the film's shooting script, where it's blue squadron, and the filmmakers then decide to change it on set to red squadron. The 1976 Star Wars novelization also refers to Luke's squadron as "blue", for the same reason. Incidentally, in Rogue One: A Star Wars Story, the film makers finally showed us blue squadron, along with red and gold, as a nod to the "phantom squadron" of the original novelization and comic book adaptation. I, for one, thought that was a really nice touch. I thought Chewie was a bit to indestructible though.. the Green alien dude in the bar should have been able to give him a run for his money, at least, and I'm not sure about him heaving that very large heavy coffin up and just carrying it UP HILL. Yeah, this is a recurring problem in these early issues. Chewbacca's personality and strength were not as well defined then as they are nowadays and it's clear that the writers were basing a lot of the Wookiee's character on the "pulling people's arms out of their sockets if they lose" comment that Han Solo made in the film. Chewie comes across as much more of an ill-tempered, ferocious brawler in these first 20 or so issues of the comic, than the Wookiee that we all know and love. The cantina scenes have a few good aliens in it, but I wouldn't have minded throwing in at least on we actually saw in the movies. ...and I'm glad I'm not the only one who wished the Marvel run had been less stingy showing 'canon' aliens (though part of that might be growing up a fan of the old Expanded Universe which liked to use Rodians, Twi'leks, Mon Calamari, etc.) Hmmmm...see, I actually like it that we don't get to see any of the same aliens that we saw in the films. One of my big annoyances in the prequel films, and an awful lot of expanded universe material as well, is that we perpetually see the same 20 or so alien species again and again. It's a big galaxy out there and, really, there should be countless different races populating the space lanes. Writers/artists continually re-using the alien races we saw in the films has the subtle and unintended consequence of making the SW galaxy seem like a much smaller place than it is. Don Juan Kihotay drove me nuts. I feel like the chances of Han running in to 2 crazy old men who think they were jedi (even if Ben really was one) in a galaxy where they are supposed to be long gone is too much.. I think it's just Thomas getting carried away with the references. Yeah, I've never been a big fan of Don-Wan Kihotay. His name is far to pun-laden for my tastes and the way he talks, like some chivalrous knight from a Victorian medieval story book, makes me roll my eyes. Also, what the hell is Han even thinking letting him on the team?! He's essentially recruited because Han feels sorry for him. In one of those 'only a nerd cares' moments, it drove me nuts that the village peasants that were recruiting were clearly Asian and wearing asian robes in the last panel of #7, then suddently were white, and wearing what looks like Tatooine garb in the very next panel at the start of #8. Yeah, that is odd. Obviously, the inker/embellisher working on the comic changes between issues, from Frank Springer to Tom Palmer, but still. I speculated in my review of issue #8 that maybe someone at Marvel, or even Roy Thomas or Palmer themselves, objected to the rather insensitive racial stereotyping of the earlier depiction, but since this comic came out way back in 1977, I tend to doubt that.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Mar 16, 2017 7:22:23 GMT -5
I didn't realize Blue squadron came from the book (I was pretty young when last I read it).. that's not so bad, then. I thought having a Blue Squadron in Rogue One was just to have someone to take all the losses. I hear you about the aliens, but, OTOH, one or two similar ones would be a happy medium, IMO. I think the Clone Wars cartoon did a pretty decent job of that, actually.. we got to see the planets where many of the random background characters were from, and see that they weren't all one 'type'.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Mar 16, 2017 7:24:40 GMT -5
More comments on your comments, wildfire2099... There was quite a bit that was forced.. like why do you need a great pilot to look for a planet.. it it hard? I'd think you'd want lots of good scientists and scanning equipment, not one hot shot fighter pilot and his droids. More importantly, if they thought he was in trouble, why would Leia go ALONE to find him? Why not bring a cruiser and some firepower? Or at least a crew? Besides the goofiness, it makes the Rebellion feel very small. I agree about the weirdness of sending a hotshot pilot like Luke out to look for a suitable planet for a base, but obviously its just a plot device to get Luke in trouble and set up the next adventure. As for Leia going off on her own to find him, I read that as more like a heat-of-the-moment, rash decision that the princess makes before anyone can stop her. She's clearly worried about Luke and, from the dialogue, we know that Leia felt that she should gone along with him in the first place, rather than remaining on Yavin 4. Of course, someone like Leia making such a rash, ill-judged decision as this is very out of character, I think, but that's my take on it all. I do like how the Jedi keep getting mentions as the great peacekeepers of the galaxy.. things were far from developed then, but yet they were right on target. Agreed. Though there are certainly some problems with the early part of the Marvel run, in terms of aligning perfectly with established Star Wars canonicity, Thomas and Goodwin's references to the Jedi Knights are not one of them. Art-wise, I think I fall on the 'Infantino isn't a good fit for Star Wars' side... the ships especially feel off to me, though he does a good job on the main characters for the most part. I agree with Confessor there are some weird poses in some panels... almost like he doesn't want to repeat shots and gets carried away. Yeah, as a kid, I really disliked Infantino's artwork on the comic. As an adult, with his style so firmly associated in my mind with the first three years of the comic -- and having been between the ages of 5 and 8 when they came out -- I have a nostalgia tinged, love/hate relationship with his art nowadays. Still, as much as his stuff is a poor fit for Star Wars, the man's technical chops are impeccable. The panel-to-panel flow and staging is always faultless and, as a reader, you never have to look at one of Infantino's panels twice to figure out what's going on. He was a master sequential artist, no doubts there, but he wasn't the best fit for Star Wars IMO. From things I've read artist Al Williamson say in interviews, I don't think George Lucas was a very big fan of Infantino's style either. The fill ins.... Both were very good... I definitely liked 16 more than 17. I feel like that perhaps more time was supposed to have passed before the followup to the Abuda-3 story was published.. it seems like it's only be a couple weeks, and we see Don Juan in a med facility (one which he's been at for long enough for someone to track him down there... The thing with Kihotay is that, actually, is he even really an old Jedi Knight? Or is he just a sick old man, with some latent Force sensitivity, who is suffering from a delusion? Thomas left that completely open for us in the Star-Hoppers of Aduba-3 story arc. When we see Kihotay in the medical facility on Talos IV, at the start of issue #16, I just took it to mean that his health has begun to seriously fail him in the weeks since we last saw him -- possibly as a result of the blast he caught from the Behemoth(?). Regardless, clearly the old man is delirious, close to death and in considerable pain when Valance's men find him. Each issue had one thing that jumped out at me as a 'what the-?' moment. First, if Valance was able to track down Don Juan, how did he not know what planet he came from? And why not, you know, read the records, instead of trashing the records room? Would have been alot easier than torturing Jaxxon, that's for sure. Don-Wan was not a native of Aduba-3. He just happened to be living there at the time when Han and Chewbacca arrived in issue #7. Valence's men didn't learn from the old man what the location of the boy and his droids was, they only learned that Don-Wan and the Starkiller Kid had fought together on a planet with Jaxxon, the Lepus Carniverous. Valance rationalised that finding a 6 foot, meat eating, green rabbit would be relatively easy and that's why he and his men captured Jaxxon. It was actually Amaiza, while she was rescuing Jaxxon, who accidentally mentioned Aduba-3 and revealed the location of the Starkiller Kid to Valence's men. As for why Valence destroyed the Telos IV medical facility and all of its records, spoiler alert... it was because he had been treated at the facility himself, when he was turned into a cyborg, and he wanted to destroy any evidence of this shameful secret. For the Luke-Biggs flashback, it was the frame... there's no way in hell at this point in the Star Wars story Han would have left Luke alone at the controls of the Falcon! Hmmm...I'm not sure I agree. Luke had already proven his skills as a pilot during the Death Star battle. He had also piloted a starship to the Drexel system on his own and, if you're reading the SW strip in Marvel's Pizzazz magazine as well, flown a star-cruiser to the Akuria system too. Luke was surely plenty qualified to sit at the controls of the Millennium Falcon, while flying through deep space. I mean, it's not as if he was trying to outrun Imperial ships or anything.
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Post by tarkintino on Mar 16, 2017 7:39:54 GMT -5
d The fill ins.... Both were very good... ..but thanks to the Lucasfilm do's and don'ts, the early, post ANH adaptation stories were exactly as they were meant to be--just trying to get "that 'ol Star Wars movie feel" again, and if not for the art, the issues would be forgettable. [JarJar]Haha...weesa be dinkin' you betta dink again about dat![/JarJar]
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Post by wildfire2099 on Mar 16, 2017 7:45:13 GMT -5
I agree he was qualified, but I don't feel like Han would want to let him.. he's awfully possesive of the Falcon... to be honest, my biggest hang up with Force Awakens is I don't like that he parted with the ship... I feel like there would have to be one hell of a reason for that to happen AND for him to not try to get it back.
I hear you about Don Juan, but it's likely he would have be checked in from Abuda-3... if he knew enough about the situation to know about the people, I feel like he'd know the place, too. I think that's just me being cynical having read too many comics though, just like the Leia thing. I know WHY it was done, and it's not particularly out of place for a comic, it just things like that niggle at my brain some these days.
I was more disturbed with Leia acting like a love sick puppy than being impulsive.. not just because we know they're related, but because it's poor characterization for what should be a strong, independent female lead. I mean, can't she be worried and mount a reasonable rescue at least? And why didn't anyone follow her? I feel like there were plenty of other ways that would have been less painful that could have set up the characters in the right place... having Leia looking for the new base in the first place, and just bringing Luke along as the pilot (or even as a bodyguard) being chief among them.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Mar 16, 2017 7:52:30 GMT -5
I agree he was qualified, but I don't feel like Han would want to let him.. he's awfully possesive of the Falcon... to be honest, my biggest hang up with Force Awakens is I don't like that he parted with the ship... I feel like there would have to be one hell of a reason for that to happen AND for him to not try to get it back. Ah, I see...gotcha. Yeah, I sort of see where you're coming from, but Han was still on broad, just catching some sleep. It's not like he said, "here...take my ship." As for The Force Awakens, the Millennium Falcon was stolen from him though, wasn't it? And Han had been searching for it because when it turns up again, he says something to Chewie like, "I told you we should've checked this sector again." I was more disturbed with Leia acting like a love sick puppy than being impulsive.. not just because we know they're related, but because it's poor characterization for what should be a strong, independent female lead. I mean, can't she be worried and mount a reasonable rescue at least? And why didn't anyone follow her? I feel like there were plenty of other ways that would have been less painful that could have set up the characters in the right place... having Leia looking for the new base in the first place, and just bringing Luke along as the pilot (or even as a bodyguard) being chief among them. Yeah, I agree with all of that. It would've made more sense. Archie Goodwin starts to write Leia much more like the character from the films from the Wheel saga onwards (issue #18).
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Post by tarkintino on Mar 16, 2017 8:15:42 GMT -5
Yeah, this is a recurring problem in these early issues. Chewbacca's personality and strength were not as well defined then as they are nowadays and it's clear that the writers were basing a lot of the Wookiee's character on the "pulling people's arms out of their sockets if they lose" comment that Han Solo made in the film. Chewie comes across as much more of an ill-tempered, ferocious brawler in these first 20 or so issues of the comic, than the Wookiee that we all know and love. Yeah, it was another case of "Let's get that 'ol Star Wars feeling again," basing his entire personality on the chessboard scene. Someone should ask Lucas to revisit his thoughts on Chaykin's ANH scribbles. That was the most "in-Star Wars" art I've ever seen.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Mar 16, 2017 8:38:53 GMT -5
Yeah, this is a recurring problem in these early issues. Chewbacca's personality and strength were not as well defined then as they are nowadays and it's clear that the writers were basing a lot of the Wookiee's character on the "pulling people's arms out of their sockets if they lose" comment that Han Solo made in the film. Chewie comes across as much more of an ill-tempered, ferocious brawler in these first 20 or so issues of the comic, than the Wookiee that we all know and love. Yeah, it was another case of "Let's get that 'ol Star Wars feeling again," basing his entire personality on the chessboard scene. Well, to be fair, what else did they have to go on? The chess scene and Chewbacca's ferocious attacking of the Imperials in the Death Star hanger bay control room, were really it, in terms of characerisation of the Wookiee in the original movie. In the novelization, Alan Dean Foster plays up Chewbacca's strength and ferocity even more than in the film, so I think the comic's creative team can be forgiven for portraying Chewbacca as something of an ill-tempered brawler. Someone should ask Lucas to revisit his thoughts on Chaykin's ANH scribbles. That was the most "in-Star Wars" art I've ever seen. Lucas always liked Chaykin's work on things like Cody Starbuck, that's why he got the job on Star Wars and also designed the poster shown at the 1976 San Diego Comic Con. But the man's art in the SW comic itself is the very definition of "dialing it in." He rushed the first issue -- by his own admission, viewing it as a largely inconsequential job -- and produced 22 pages of scratchy, scribbly, and, frankly, substandard artwork. He then only did very loose breakdowns on the following 8 issues, before finally leaving the series altogether. Chaykin has said in interviews that had he known how successful those comics would become and how many times they'd end up getting reprinted, he'd have tried a little harder on them.
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Post by rossn on Mar 16, 2017 12:24:49 GMT -5
Hmmmm...see, I actually like it that we don't get to see any of the same aliens that we saw in the films. One of my big annoyances in the prequel films, and an awful lot of expanded universe material as well, is that we perpetually see the same 20 or so alien species again and again. It's a big galaxy out there and, really, there should be countless different races populating the space lanes. Writers/artists continually re-using the alien races we saw in the films has the subtle and unintended consequence of making the SW galaxy seem like a much smaller place than it is. Oh, I don't agree at all. You talk about countless species, but what about by far the biggest offenders: humans? We see them everywhere in the GFFA. Now I don't have a problem with the idea humans (or aliens that are visually indistinguishable from humans) are the single most common 'humanoid' species, but surely they aren't the only species that can exist on more than one planet? To be honest I'd probably have preferred a higher proportion of non-humans in the Marvel run, where, unlike in the films 'makeup' was free. Having 'stock' aliens is a great way to combat an excessive emphasis on humans. It turns the setting from 'humans and various aliens who are mostly confined to one planet' to 'common species in the Galacitic Republic/Empire like humans, Twi'leks, Rodians and so on, less common species like Hutts and 'one planet only' species who are mostly primitive (like Ewoks or Sand People) or isolationist. Plus I like a lot of the canon species.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Mar 16, 2017 12:34:47 GMT -5
Hmmmm...see, I actually like it that we don't get to see any of the same aliens that we saw in the films. One of my big annoyances in the prequel films, and an awful lot of expanded universe material as well, is that we perpetually see the same 20 or so alien species again and again. It's a big galaxy out there and, really, there should be countless different races populating the space lanes. Writers/artists continually re-using the alien races we saw in the films has the subtle and unintended consequence of making the SW galaxy seem like a much smaller place than it is. Oh, I don't agree at all. You talk about countless species, but what about by far the biggest offenders: humans? We see them everywhere in the GFFA. Now I don't have a problem with the idea humans (or aliens that are visually indistinguishable from humans) are the single most common 'humanoid' species, but surely they aren't the only species that can exist on more than one planet? To be honest I'd probably have preferred a higher proportion of non-humans in the Marvel run, where, unlike in the films 'makeup' was free. Having 'stock' aliens is a great way to combat an excessive emphasis on humans. It turns the setting from 'humans and various aliens who are mostly confined to one planet' to 'common species in the Galacitic Republic/Empire like humans, Twi'leks, Rodians and so on, less common species like Hutts and 'one planet only' species who are mostly primitive (like Ewoks or Sand People) or isolationist. Plus I like a lot of the canon species. That's all a fair point, I guess. You're particularly right about humans or races indistinguishable from humans being, if anything, too plentiful in the SW galaxy.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Mar 16, 2017 18:54:46 GMT -5
One of the things I've always liked about Star Wars is the variety of aliens... as opposed to the Gene Roddenberry 'all aliens are humans with different bumps on their heads' syndrome that Trek has.
Sure, there's plenty of humanoid species in Star Wars, but there are also plenty of non-human ones... that's even a thing in some of the EU books if I recall... I know Zahn at least talked about how the Empire also gave preferential treatment to 'standard' humans. It was a bit of a way to explain why Grand Admiral Thrawn wasn't around for the movie battles, but it also made some sense, too, and made the Empire a bit more evil (which is a good thing, IMO)
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Post by wildfire2099 on Mar 17, 2017 23:02:12 GMT -5
The Wheel Saga 18-23
Plot wise, this is definitely the best so far.. while there are some weak plots, overall it's a great story that fits in nicely with the Star Wars universe as a whole, and as an event that happened between ANH and ESB.
Leia was awesome here.. the best she's been portrayed by a long shot. I really liked Greyshade, too... sorta seemed like proto-Lando to me. Master Computer was also really interesting, it's too bad he has to stay on the Wheel.. I'd love to see more of him.
Han was also pretty good..seemed just right that he was worrying about the ship, and had to hock the droids to get a gambling stake. I was just sad we didn't see any sabacc.. instead opting for a not well definitely bit of a holo table reminescient of the 'let the Wookie win' scene. Perhaps sabacc hadn't been 'invented' yet.. I know one of the books had detailed enough rules to play (assuming one could simulate the holographic shifting bits), but I don't recall if it was the Zahn books, or maybe the Daley novels.. perhaps even the Lando novel.
The gladiator thing has been done to death, but it was fine.. if predictable. I did like that Han figured out it was rigged pretty quickly, though I'm not sure it made sense for him to sign up in the first place. It was also a little weak how they money a bunch on money again, and lost it again... I get they can't pay off Jabba, but be a bit more creative, huh?
The only part I didn't really like was the Vader bits.. I thought he was much too talkative. Perhaps it's just because I'm used to the 'modern' take, but I like him more using actions to show his menace, and speaking only when needed... seems more scary that way. It was cool that he was on Valance's trail, though.
The big thing, though, was with Luke. When he sensed him (or, I guess, where he'd been) he was shocked... how can that be? Granted he doesn't know exactly who Luke is, or his name, but he knew the X-Wing pilot who blew he Death Star was strong in the force, so reacting the way he did made no sense. Then, to make it worse, after telling his flag captain to go fast as possible and damn the ship's engines, he gets distracted by the Falcon (he recognizes it right away) and lets them escape after some sort of mind blast/resistance.
Art wise.. bleh. I agree with Confessor on the ships, they're terrible. The Star Destroyers are just big triangles, and that X-Wing..almost as bad as back in the Gold Key days when they show the Enterprise with flames shooting out the back. Then there's Luke turning into Conan. Longer hair as fine, but it's suddenly down to his shoulders. He and Han were also WAY to muscular and broad looking... even Threepio in the first few scenes. I did really like the pages for the big gladiator fight though.. some great visuals there. I also liked Vader's eyes being a little red, and the covers were all pretty good.. just not the main story.
I know the story goes back to the Wheel eventually, so I say bring it on!
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Mar 18, 2017 8:10:24 GMT -5
Leia was awesome here.. the best she's been portrayed by a long shot. Totally agree. Archie Goodwin's writing is excellent and she seems to be the member of the central cast that he has the best grip on, in terms of their personality. I really liked Greyshade, too... sorta seemed like proto-Lando to me. I think Greyshade is creepier or sleazier than Lando, but maybe that's because he's a lot older than her and also not a particularly nice guy. Han was also pretty good..seemed just right that he was worrying about the ship, and had to hock the droids to get a gambling stake. I was just sad we didn't see any sabacc.. instead opting for a not well definitely bit of a holo table reminescient of the 'let the Wookie win' scene. Perhaps sabacc hadn't been 'invented' yet.. I know one of the books had detailed enough rules to play (assuming one could simulate the holographic shifting bits), but I don't recall if it was the Zahn books, or maybe the Daley novels.. perhaps even the Lando novel. Sabacc was first mentioned in Donald F. Glut's novelization of The Empire Strikes Back from 1980, so no, the game hadn't been "invented" when the Wheel Saga was written. The only part I didn't really like was the Vader bits.. I thought he was much too talkative. Perhaps it's just because I'm used to the 'modern' take, but I like him more using actions to show his menace, and speaking only when needed... seems more scary that way. It was cool that he was on Valance's trail, though. I thought Vader's scenes were really good and written very much in character by Goodwin. I could "hear" James Earl Jones saying the lines as I read. I think the Wheel Saga overall is the best non-movie story arc we've had so far, but it is a slow burner: it takes three or four issues before it really kicks into high-gear.
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